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    • As I recall the only thing you tried telling us was based on a quote that you selectively edited by Lord James of Blackheath. You misrepresented it as a statement of fact when it was actually a question which was laughed at by his peers in the House of Lords.  We told you it was garbage, you asked us to prove it and we did.   Remember?
    • you need to realise that for every person that does come to CAG and register and tell their story...there are poss 10'000 that don't but search the interweb whereby threads that are here pop up relating to like issues they are searching upon.   Most CAG siteteam and many other registered Caggers give advice that bears this in mind and post information which not only informs the starter of a thread upon what to do, but also takes into consideration the readers from the interweb that also read the relevant advice given that might not be brave enough to register and fess up.   to that end, there is very little alternative than to appear to give 'grief' [you deserve it - tough] to a cagger should certain previous advice not have been followed.....yours is a very classic case of such. hey I've found a backdoor CCJ.   to put it bluntly, had you have followed such previous advice, you most certainly would not be in the situation you are in here now.. .so by example, not giving you grief, for future readers...………..   ...never ever move without informing a debt owner of a move of address on any consumer debt that you last used or paid within the last say 7yrs. your credit file is a major key to ascertaining that information.... .but don't just read this advice come to the consumeractiongroup.co.uk website and let us help.   lecture over... what can you do..or more importantly....what can a claimant do now they have a default forthwith judgement against you. well we can't guess.... they might simply ignore it as 1000's of people with CCJ's find out..but it becomes an issue should you wish to say get a mortgage, remortgage or further credit.   i'm not going to enter into any of that here...that's for the reader to start a thread here and seek advice on their individual situation specific to them as you have done....   so...  bearing the all of the above in mind...over to you with regard to this backdoor CCJ.   as for the other debts that you didn't action before...go read your old thread and action what appropriate advice is given there for each type of debt that has been given should you wish to avoid any further backdoor CCJ's.   dx                    
    • hello my very good helpful friend. I am afraid to say that i did not. As i did not realise the relevance of it.   Should i be doing this right now of anyone on my credit file ?   Plz don't give me grief if u have already advised me...   do i do the ccs request now to everybody in that thread ?    
    • aha busted and stupid ...no wonder you've got mixed information here. never trust anything they say ..they have a very bad reputation for stating the truth.   now can you go get your credit file please..   there are cases whereby a council on historic CTAX debts do go for a county court CCJ, but a liability order from a magistrates court has far more clout legally than a county court CCJ and i've never heard of a court sending a bailiff out for 'multiple' CCJ collection.   me thinks he is pulling the wool here a bit and has looked at your credit file and seen CCJ's too so thought he'd chance his arm and use those as further leverage.   don't worry about the sat visit simply ignore do not answer the door if he appears. your task is too gather data at present.   credit file please..        
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abedegno

Small Claims Court Action against builder

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Hi,

 

I recently commenced small claims court action against a builder who I contracted to do some work at my property summer 2016.

 

Having telephoned him repeatedly about poor and unfinished work,

I was finally able to get him to come out and visit me where he agreed he would complete the work by the end of the following week

 

 

- as I had grown very suspicious of his intentions,

in particular the ignored calls

I recorded the final conversation on my mobile phone as voice memo without his knowledge as I could perhaps use it or a transcript as evidence should I need to make a legal claim.

 

When he failed to return to site to finish the work,

and continue to ignore my calls I sent mail correspondence,

 

 

eventually seeking a second opinion from two other building firms

(the view of both was was what he had done was crap and overpriced),

obtained quotes and completing the pre-court action via recorded delivery which was also ignored.

 

I filed the claim against his Limited company using MCOL,

he filed a defence at the last minute,

which was very poor and largely consisted of personal attacks/insults against myself than anything of substance.

 

 

He has now missed the DQ deadline and been given a general sanctions order which he also appears to be ignoring.

As such I expect to be-able to request judgement this week.

 

I am now having doubts as to whether I should have initiated action against the Ltd company rather than him personally,

 

 

my logic being:

- I have subsequently read that enforcing a judgement against a Ltd company is difficult,

he could dissolve the company,

transfer what assets he has and move on.

 

- My correspondence with him (quotes & invoices) didn't mention the Ltd company or show the registration number

 

- The bank account that I made payments into,

whilst a business current account,

was in his name rather than the Ltd company the name.

 

Should I therefore:

- Discontinue the claim and re-issue it against him personally

- Perhaps list both him and his Ltd company as defendants

- Continue with the current claim and if unsuccessful try again with another claim against him personally?

 

Any advice gratefully appreciated!

 

Thanks

 

Abe

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Too late now.

Get the judgement and hope that the ltd company has some assets, most likely tools.

He could apply for a set aside because he dealt with you as a sole trader rather than ltd company, but I doubt he will do it, otherwise you could sue him directly.

He's not used this in his defence, so he didn't dispute the fact that the ltd company is involved.

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Hi,

 

Thanks for the advice.

 

He does have tools and also some plant machinery which he also hires out (mini-diggers etc) as there are pictures on his website with the company name/logo on them - but I only have a rough idea of where he keeps them (a lockup somewhere nearby) and the only address I have is the registered company address, which is also his home address.

 

Apologies, I haven't yet got judgement so I might be getting ahead of myself a bit!

 

Abe

 

 

Thanks

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I'm afraid that I think that you did get ahead of yourself a bit by even beginning the action without having all of these things sorted out.

 

I suppose that is fairly natural for people bringing a legal action against anyone to concentrate on the business of bringing the action. This is certainly starting at the wrong end. People should be asking themselves questions about enforcement of a judgement in the event that they win. This is the whole objective of bringing the action, after all.

 

It certainly might have been a good idea to sue the individual as well as the company at the same time. You could still amend the claim to do exactly that, but that would take a form n244 application notice and would cost you about £250. Plus you with then cause a delay as you with have to allow the builder to file a defence to the amended action et cetera et cetera.

 

As you have been advised above, the best thing to do is simply go for the judgement that you are about to get – if you at all can. Be aware that if you do get your judgement, the builder's reaction may well be to apply for a set-aside. If that happens then come back here quickly.

 

What is the value of the claim? You really don't give us very many details here.


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Hi,

 

Value of the claim is 3,200 GBP.

 

I did seek some initial legal advice from a lawyer, however this didn't really provide anything that wasn't available online through CAB or similar.

Subsequent reading around the subject suggests that getting the judgement is the easy bit and some practical advice (like what appears on this forum) is needed, and like you suggested I am now instead thinking backwards from enforcement, for example:

- Not enforcing the judgement straight away and waiting until the spring when the builder is busier and has more active trade/money coming in.

- The builder very helpfully posts recently completed jobs to his Facebook page, and thinking I could apply for a TPDO against the recipient of his services and/or his bank.

- Driving around local storage yards and looking for vehicles with his livery on.

 

Thanks

 

Abe

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Does the business own the machines or are they on lease / HP?

Just beware that if they are leased / on HP that an HCEO won't be able to seize them if the business can show they don't actually own them.

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Hi,

 

I believe the business owns the machines, they're not that new but their auction value should cover the total of the debt, however the challenge would be getting access to them I suspect. I'm aware leased items can't be seized, I know his work van is financed.

 

Thanks

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If he own plant machinery you're on a winner but in my experience it's very unlikely for a ltd company to own such machinery.

Tools are a good bet Imo.

A few everyday tools would easily pile up a good amount, unless he's smart enough to "sell" his tools to his wife and rent them back.

This would prevent bailiffs from confiscating them.

As said, go ahead and instruct the hceo as soon as you can.

Best thing to do is find out where he keeps his plants and tools so to advise hceo.

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You've been here since 2013 and yet you still go and pay a lawyer for advice instead of coming here first.

 

Your right to start doing some careful investigation. Trying to find his vehicles and to find out where they are kept at night is a good idea.

 

I would normally recommend moving to an execution immediately but in your case, I think your suggestion to hold on is right.

 

The other thing is that at £3200, I wouldn't be instructing bailiffs. I would be instructing HCEO. If you search on the Internet, you will find several companies offering a comprehensive service including the transfer up of the action to the High Court and then obtaining instructions to go in as a Sheriff/CEO. These people are much more powerful than bailiffs and they generally speaking don't muck around and accept excuses. However, you will need to give them the best chance which means that you need to find out the whereabouts of addresses and assets.

 

Before instructing an HCEO, make sure that the service they offer includes all fees to be paid by the defendant and that if the execution fails, then they take the hit instead of coming back to you for wasted fees. HCEO fees are very high and so you want to make sure that you enter into an arrangement where you are fully protected. Make sure that you check carefully the terms and conditions and take screenshots of the website and any agreements you enter into.


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Hi,

 

I don't recall opening the account in 2013, point taken though. Fortunately I didn't pay for the legal advice and it was covered by my professional memberships.

 

What legal means do I have to identify addresses and locations of assets (obviously I can think of some less legal ones such as bin diving, GPS trackers and social engineering)

 

Thanks

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If he is limited, its likely the assets belong to him personally and he leases them to the company.

If they are owned by the company, they are probably on finance the same as his van.

If he has a 10k van on finance, its almost guaranteed his 20 30 40k worth of machinery is too.

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Hi,

 

I looked at his company house filing - some 20k of fixed assets in the accounts. He doesn't have a lot of machinery, just one of each that he will lease out if he is not using it rather than an expansive hire business.

 

I do have an excellent inside source of information however, I believe I have identified the lockup where he keeps some of his larger tools/small plant - it was only one of two possible storage companies.

 

Having spoken to MCOL they have advised he has missed the 2nd DQ deadline and there I will shortly be able to request judgement - odd that he took the time to file the d fence only to miss two opportunities to send in the DQ...

 

I suppose my first course of actions would be transfer to a HCEO although I am tempted to try a third party debt order - I know who he banks with and I also know some of the larger corporate contracts he has, but I would probably need to wait until Spring before he is actively doing any work for them to actually raise an order.

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Send in the hceo as soon as you get judgement.

As soon as he's told that they will lift his machines he will pay up.

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Of ge is just storing tools in a third party lockup and trading from another location, we wouldn't be able to access the lockup without a separate court order which costs in the region of £500 win or lose.

A hceo can ONLY enforce where a debtor resides or trades from.

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Don't know if it reflects the truth,

but I have seen hceo on tv waiting for third party property to be open/unlocked in order to gain peaceful entry and lift the goods.

True?

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Was it a business premises?

Did the judgment debtor trade from those premises?

Were those premises specifically detailed on the writ?.

 

Unless you know the details, you can't infer "applicable to all times" from that one time ....

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Don't know if it reflects the truth, but I have seen hceo on tv waiting for third party property to be open/unlocked in order to gain peaceful entry and lift the goods.

True?

 

Might be under old rules.

Might be with a court order.

Might be a trading address.

There can be lots of reasons for the above to have happened.

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After waiting some time the bar was removed and the defence struck out so I have been able to request judgement through the MCOL website - I specified an 'immediate' payment.

I assume as soon as I get a copy of the judgement i can begin the transfer up process and engage a HCEO?

 

Thanks

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Yes, the judgement should state payment forthwith. Any date after that would just be a 28 days to appeal etc.

 

Contact one of the hceo companies but check:

Only £66 to transfer up.

No other costs paid by you unless agreed during enforcement.

If abortive, no more that 50+vat as an abortive charge.

 

Also, check the companies policy on visits and enforcement times.

Some will only do one or two visits, others will do 3 4 or 5 including mandatory put of hours visits.

 

We cant recommend a company here but the are a few big ones that are all pretty much the same.

You also need to give ALL addresses where you BELIEVE the debtor to be trading from or residing.

 

If you believe he is actually picking up his tools from this lockup every day and going to work, it could be classed as a trading address.

Same as the directors home address.

Directors often drive company cars and vans and they are often parked at home addresses.

 

If you are aware of where the company are also working, as in a building site, you can direct us there.

Whilst its not easy, if they are working there, they are trading there.

Not only that, but plant or machinery may be freely accessible on the highway.

 

Best of luck.

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Hi,

 

I have transferred up and now that the notice of enforcement issued - which expired last Saturday so enforcement agents are scheduled to attend shortly.

 

I have, however, been monitoring the builder and he helpfully posts on social media his activities including some work he has recently begun at a school.

 

Even though I have already transferred to the high court and instructed enforcement officers:

- Can I still apply for a Third Party Debt Order and list the school as a creditor

- Is this worth while doing?

 

Thanks

 

Abe

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Yes you can.

It happens quite often. And yea,

if its a job that pays on completion and you get the 3pdo in time, it is worth doing.

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Thanks - presumably i can apply for the full amount including high court/bailiff fees that have subsequently been added?

 

Thanks

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Hi,

 

I didn't make use of the TPDO as I had continued the surveil the builder, and have subsequently discovered the location of his storage unit/lockup where tools and light plant, such as a mini excavator, are stored.

I've passed these details onto the bailiffs, but they advised a law change in 2013 removed their automatic right to enter third party premises where they believed goods might be stored.

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