tsb DD Guarantee GB Energy/Co-Op Energy - Indemnity Claim ?

[the thinker]

hi,

 

i made a dd indemnity claim on the 13/12/16

the bank are asking for the advance notice letter,

 

i contacted the company concern and they have refused to deal with me.

the payments which they took are in error and i believe im entitled to a full and immediate refund of the amount paid from my bank.

 

also i shall give them 30 days to investigate

then i want to claim the refund back in court.

 

also im going on breached of their obligations under the banking contract,

Banking: Conduct of Business sourcebook (BCOBS),section 150 Schedule 5.

 

what would b my POC be?

regards

[renegadeimp]

Youre entitled to a refund from your bank. It isnt up to them to decide yes or no. They have to do it, butbear no comeback for missed payments. You have to sort them yourself. Speak to a manager. Not a phone rep or desk jockey.

 

Which bank was it.

[BankFodder]

We are very happy to help you with a BCOBS claim – but you need to prepare carefully. Can you give us more information about the transaction and also what evidence have you got? Have you got anything in writing from a supplier? And have you got anything in writing from the bank?

[the thinker]

hi,

 

tsb and the company gb energy.

 

dds were taken in error

 

when i went through the online statements there were errors in the amounts that should have been taken and it looks like theres errors on all of the payments and the amount taken.

 

paul pester (ceo) passed in on to his colleague and i said errors were taken and thats all you need to know.

 

then i said can you reply by letter informing me why i havent been credited.

 

cindy on phone call said i never sent the letters in (even though sent by recorded mail n special delivery) and she keep saying "we need the advance notice"

 

i kept repeating that the orginator wont speak to me.

Regards

[AndyOrch]

Thread moved to the appropriate forum.

 

Regards

 

Andy

[BankFodder]

Okay, I've found a reference to "advance notice".

 

It seems that you must be served and advance notice before the first payment and also before any variations.

 

However, I don't see anywhere that the direct debit guarantee requires an advance notice to be activated. I've certainly never heard of it before and a quick Google doesn't show me anything.

 

I hope you are my me saying that that your posts are expressed in a rather abbreviated texting style that makes it difficult to follow.

 

I don't know who Paul Pester is. You really don't make it clear whether it is TSB or the energy company. I've asked you if there's been any writing but I'm not sure that you have answered.

 

It would also help if you could space, punctuate and paragraph space your posts. We work very hard here to try and help people and it would be nice if you would present your story in the way that you would like it to be presented to you. It will make life much easier all round.

[the thinker]

hi,

sorry

paul pester is ceo of tsb.

i have written to tsb registered address twice by recorded delivery/special delivery to make claim under the d/d guarantee.

gb energy wont talk to me.

tsb have said they wont refund until they get advance notice, and i have repeated to tsb that the orginator wont talk to me.

tsb said they will send letter to confirm why i havent recieved a full and immediate refund, but awaiting letter.

 

regards

[BankFodder]

Have you seen anywhere that an Advance Notice is a necessary stage in invoking the direct debit guarantee? I certainly haven't seen it.

 

Where the erroneous direct debits the first ones which went out? Or had there already been direct debits which had gone out correctly?

[the thinker]

hi,

the d/ds have gone out.

 

Regards

[BankFodder]

Sorry, but your comments above don't make much sense and also you don't seem to have answered my questions in post number nine

[the thinker]

hi,

 

Where the erroneous direct debits the first ones which went out? no, only picked up the errors when i checked my online account. as soon has i knew i informed bank of errors with letter.

 

Or had there already been direct debits which had gone out correctly? none of the direct debits went out correctly, all of them were errors with the amount taken.

 

regards

[martin2006]

How many direct debits have been paid erroneously, when did these begin and has there been a problem with each one?

[the thinker]

hi,

 

update from company-After reviewing your account, we can confirm we no longer have any information related to your Direct Debit as it was terminated on 16.12.2016.

 

regards

[BankFodder]

Thank you. At the outset, you said that you are prepared to make trouble and bring an action on BCOBS if necessary.

 

There are two things you can do. You can either make a formal complaint to the bank about their refusal to invoke the direct debit guarantee – on spurious grounds – and say that you want to take this to the ombudsman. They will start a formal complaint process and they will take eight weeks to get back to you and maybe knock you back in which case you will have to use the ombudsman and wait up to 12 months or more for an uncertain decision.

 

Or, you can send a letter before action threatening a BCOBS action which is likely to have a fairly rapid effect. I can imagine that the bank would put its hands up and pay you a reasonable sum in compensation within 2 to 3 months. In the event that they decided to call you out on it, you would go to court and on the basis of what you say, you will probably win and get a BCOBS judgement which would be a very excellent thing for all bank customers everywhere. As I say, this is most unlikely to happen. It is much more likely that the bank will put its hands up in order to avoid the time and trouble and they will make a payment to you as a gesture of goodwill.

 

If you decide to take a BCOBS action then it would be a small claim. You would have to claim a modest amount of compensation – to get your money back and also some compensation for the hassle. I don't think you that she told us the value of the errors. Please can you do this.

 

Depending on the value of the claim, the claim would cost anything from about £30 to maybe 80 or so. There will be a hearing fee which is currently quite a lot – but I can't remember – but on the basis that you one, you would get all of this back. If you issue the claim and incurred any of these costs and if the bank put their hands up then you will get your costs back as well.

 

If you want to start a BCOBS claim then we will be right behind you and we would help you as much as we can. Very few people have ever started a BCOBS claim. Only one of them became successful and that was because of the stupid accident by Santander. However, we have noticed that when the two or three other BCOBS claims were started, the banks very quickly fell into line and made very decent offers of compensation.

 

The most spectacular one was NatWest which tried to wreck somebody's credit file. The claim started as a claim for about £200 and NatWest eventually settled for £7500 which was quite amazing. At that point it fell off the forum

because I think that NatWest at that point insisted that nothing else be publicised on the forum or anywhere else. So I'm not really completely certain of the figures. However, don't let these figures to go to your head. If you want to start a BCOBS action then I would suggest a modest amount of compensation which really reflected your losses and then we would see how it went.

[the thinker]

hi,

 

i want to start a BCOBS claim for my refund of £648 for the amounts taken and for the direct debit Guarantee. i have been told the dd claim has been turn down but would not send me the proof.

i really want the pocs to get the ball rolling

 

regards

[BankFodder]

Okay. That's fine.

 

You will need to understand the basic steps of bringing a small claim. There is lots of information on this forum or if you want to find in one place then we have a reasonable comprehensive chapter in the Consumer Survival Handbook available on Amazon for a small price.

 

Whatever you do, read around. It's not complicated but you are better off understanding the steps so that you are confident in what you do.

 

If you want to start then you will have to send a letter before action giving them 14 days. I think you will have to do take into account the days which are not working days because of the Christmas and New Year season.

 

Your letter before action suffered set out briefly what has happened, the fact that you have tried to invoke the direct debit guarantee and they have refused to honour it and they are imposing conditions relating to an advance notice which are not included in the guarantee. Point out them that you have not received an advance notice and this is yet another reason why you are invoking the guarantee.

 

Tell them that you consider they are treating you unfairly and contrary to the Banking: Conduct of Business Regulations and that if they do not return your money to you within 14 days then you will start a legal action in the County Court and without any further notice.

 

Let us know if what I suggested above is correct and if you're going to do it

[the thinker]

hi,

ive already sent this-

 

I have not received a reply to my letters dated 13/12/2016 and 15/12/2016 regarding the Direct Debit Guarantee Claim made to you on the 13/12/2016. This letter explained what is unfair to me and why I am entitled to a refund.

 

I am once again requesting a full refund under the Direct Debit Guarantee and it state as follows-

 

Organisations using the Direct Debit Scheme go through a careful vetting process before they're authorised, and are closely monitored by the banking industry.

 

 

The efficiency and security of Direct Debit is monitored and protected by your own bank or building society.

The Direct Debit Guarantee applies to all Direct Debits. It protects you in the rare event that there is an error in the payment of your Direct Debit*.

 

Direct Debit Guarantee

The Guarantee is offered by all banks and building societies that accept instructions to pay Direct Debits

 

If there are any changes to the amount, date or frequency of your Direct Debit the organisation will notify you (normally 10 working days) in advance of your account being debited or as otherwise agreed.

 

 

If you request the organisation to collect a payment, confirmation of the amount and date will be given to you at the time of the request

 

If an error is made in the payment of your Direct Debit, by the organisation or your bank or building society, you are entitled to a full and immediate refund of the amount paid from your bank or building society

 

If you receive a refund you are not entitled to, you must pay it back when the organisation asks you to

You can cancel a Direct Debit at any time by simply contacting your bank or building society. Written confirmation may be required. Please also notify the organisation.

 

* The Guarantee covers Direct Debit payments. It cannot be used to address contractual disputes between you and the billing organisation.

 

Also I believe that you have breached my contract under the Banking: Conduct of Business sourcebook (BCOBS) UNDER SECTION 150 (Section 138D)of the Financial Services and Markets Act. TSB PLC has a duty to operate my current account so the consequences are not unfair to me, its is obliged to have regards to my interests, when making decisions.

 

I would like a reply as soon as possible so that I know you have received this letter. If you don't agree to the refund, could you please then send me a detailed response saying why you don't agree.

 

To avoid taking court action, I am willing to use Alternative Dispute Resolution to resolve this problem.

 

If I do not receive a satisfactory response from you within 30 days of the date of this letter, I intend to issue proceedings against you in the county court without further notice. This may increase your liability for costs.

 

I refer you to the Practice Direction on pre-action conduct under the Civil Procedure Rules, and in particular to paragraph 4 which sets out the sanctions the court may impose if you fail to comply with the Practice Direction.

 

I look forward to your acknowledgement.

Yours faithfully

 

regards

[BankFodder]

Well it's a big shame that you offer them 30 days to resolve it. That gives them lots of breathing space and they will take that as a sign that you really don't want to go ahead.

 

Also, it's a shame that you said that you be prepared to use an ADR solution. They will simply propose the ombudsman. That will get you into extended delays, as I have suggested.

 

It's a shame you don't come here for advice before you send the letters off. The real question to have asked and – which you have failed to do so – is where in the direct debit guarantee is there a requirement that you furnish them with an advance notice before the guarantee could be triggered. That really is the nugget and that's what you want to find out.

[the thinker]

hi,

 

i havent sent that letter yet, my mistake its what i will be sending today (me bad) its a draft waiting to b sent. (wanted you to have a look first)

 

no i failed to ask them is where in the direct debit guarantee is there a requirement that you furnish them with an advance notice before the guarantee could be triggered, havent asked.

 

regards

[BankFodder]

Well it's a matter for you, but in that case I would shorten it. I don't see you need to go through all the stodgy detail of the direct debit guarantee. They know it all.

 

I think you simply need to tell them that you have tried to trigger the direct debit guarantee that they have refused. Tell them that they have insisted on receiving an advance notice that you don't believe that this is a pre-requirement for triggering the direct debit guarantee. If they disagree then please would they tell you where it can be found. Tell them furthermore, you haven't received any advance notice and that is part of your complaint.

 

Tell them they are treating you unfairly within the meaning of BCOBS and unless they give you a full refund within 14 days that you will start a legal action against them and without any further notice.

 

I'm not sure that you need any more

[the thinker]

hi

 

just received letter and they said to proceed with claim they need copy of advance notice letter

 

regards

[BankFodder]

Well I suggest that you respond to them as I have suggested above but with a reference to the letter which you have just received. Once again, you need to ask them where you can find the requirement that there should be an advance notice letter – especially when no advance notice has been served.

 

I found the time to have a conversation with the Direct Debit people. It took a bit of time but they eventually agreed with me that there is no requirement for this formality to be satisfied before a bank has a duty to investigate. They did point out that a bank might quite reasonably require this information as part of their investigation – but it is certainly not a condition of the Direct Debit Guarantee.

 

If you have no advance notice from the energy supplier – then I think you are completely justified in sending the letter before action and then beginning to sue TSB. As I said, I think that the bank will put their hands up once it gets out of the hands of the jobsworth and into some people who think for themselves.

 

If you're going to start the action then I would start it for your money back plus, say £150, compensation. This is probably slightly more than it's worth – unless you say different – but I think that TSB would be very unwilling to see a BCOBS judgement against them.

 

Furthermore, I can imagine that if they did put their hands up, they would want to do it on conditions of confidentiality – which I would refuse them.

 

The story with the NatWest case which I referred to above is that they were sued for a small amount and the claimant was relentless in pursuit of principle. They offered to settle and he said no. They raise the offer over the claim amount and he still said no. He said there was a larger principle at stake. They raise the offer several times and he still said no – and then he disappeared out of the picture and we had no more. I expect that he receive the money – and although I found it frustrating, – I can hardly say I blame him.

 

Although the TSB might make you an offer of the amount you are claiming, you are not obliged to accept it if you have a reasonable basis for continuing your claim to judgement. I think that if a bank is deliberately flouting the terms of the direct debit guarantee, then this could well be reasonable grounds to get a BCOBS judgement against them and then to pass that judgement onto the FCA and also a copy to the direct debit people. This would be a very serious matter for TSB and which they would want to avoid.

[the thinker]

hi,

 

thanks for your time and effort, i really mean that.

 

the letter they sent, we will not send any further responses.

 

regards

 

hi,

 

would would be my poc to start the claim

 

regards

[BankFodder]

 

 

1. The claimant is a customer of the defendant bank, account number XXXXX
   
2. The defendant bank is a member of the direct debit guarantee scheme and is also regulated by the Financial Conduct Authority
   
3. The claimant set up a direct debit in favour of XXX Ltd.
   
4. XXX Ltd did not provide the claimant with any kind of advance notice of the payments that would be taken
   
5. XXX Ltd took a succession of erroneous payments from XX date to XX date and refused to return them.
   
6. The claimant applied to the defendant bank for the return of the payments under the direct debit guarantee scheme
   
7. the defendant refused to begin an investigation or return the payments on the grounds that they required site of an advance notice letter
   
8. the direct debit guarantee scheme contains no requirement for such formalities to be required in any event the claimant is unable to provide such notice as it was not provided in this itself is part of the complaint.
   
9. The defendants requirement of this formality is arbitrary and is unfair treatment under the Banking: Conduct of Business Regulations 2009 – made under the FCA's powers contained in the Financial Services and Market Act 2000
   
10. the claimant claims the return of erroneous payments from the defendant under the direct debit guarantee scheme of £XXX plus compensation of £XXX
    

 

By the way, I realise that in this suggested particulars of claim, I didn't indicate that you were a customer or give your account number. You will need to do this.

[the thinker]

Hi,

 

thanks for reply.

 

I cant fit it all in and i try to shorten it but miss out good points.

 

Regards