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    • Thank you for getting back to me I will do my best to get hold of the claim form tomorrow  When I spoke to MCOl on friday I asked for the extra 14 days so penty of time Onlymeagain
    • Hi, From everything I've read about how EVRi handle mediation, and given I intend not to budge on my position, I am preparing for court. Having read the the full WS and court bundl @occysrazor kindly supplied, I am wondering what value adding the Jamie Bradbury v UPS Limited has?  Obviously this case was lost by the claimant and the ruling clearly goes against the Farooq case and more recently @occysrazor's.  Is the case to include it simply to showcase my argument as being well rounded? Interested in your opinions. Many thanks, Sam 
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PCN Cont52 Kingston - (Surbiton Crescent KT6 - Council Trialing New Road Scheme


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Hello

 

I'm hoping I can get some help/advice please.

 

Two days ago I received a PCN from Kingston Council

stating that I had committed a moving traffic offence for contravention 52 -

failing to comply with a prohibition on certain types of vehicle.

 

 

The alleged offence happened on 17/11/16 and the PCN was dated 25/11/16.

They have supplied 4 CCTV pictures which show my car in colour in 3 pictures but you cannot read the registration.

The fourth picture is blacked out and clearly shows just my registration number.

The road traffic signs are in the pictures but they are not very clear.

 

I'm looking to see if I can appeal the PCN as albeit I did drive through a restricted area it was a genuine mistake and there are some other circumstances I feel should be taken into consideration.

 

In October this year Kingston Council decided to trial a new scheme along part of the road I drove through (Surbiton Crescent KT6

prior to this there were no restrictions for any vehicles).

 

 

at one end there a small section where they have now restricted all motor vehicles (the sign displayed) except buses, cycles and taxis and for access.

 

 

They apparently allowed some sort of bedding in period and have by their own admission on the website issued over 5500 warnings to motorists who have missed the signs .

 

 

The new route along this road is to turn left onto any one of 2 roads rather than going through the restricted area.

There is only one other sign along this road pointing out the changes

but nothing significant to advise motorists that have used that road regularly that they have introduced this major change.

PCN from CCTV footage commenced 14/11/2016.

 

I believe that they have not put up enough signs to motorists who use this road on a fairly regular basis (myself included) to make them aware of the changes.

 

 

When I returned to view the road signs yesterday,

people were still driving through the signs which have been placed on temporary bollards along the actual road and others were also there after receiving PCN's for the same offence.

 

Can anyone offer any advice?

 

Thanks.

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you can appeal using the mitigating factors you mention and hope that they give you a ticking off instead but ultimately if the Traffic Order is correctly in place ( check this) the you are legally stuffed.

 

 

If they havent been fining anyone and the signage has been there for a while then you can claim that the order hasnt been applied so no breach do to "performance" (legal term saying that they arent really interested in enforcing it so it has lapsed)

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Thanks ericsbrother for your response.

 

How would I check if the Traffic Order is correctly in place?

 

Also have done a bit of research - with a contravention 52 should the PCN also have a letter ie a b c d attached advising which vehicles are prohibited as mine does not?

It just says "certain types of vehicle"

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Hi Ford

 

Yes that looks to be the right one.

 

I think that the signs began going up in September and they kept adding more signs at the request of the residents!

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Also have done a bit of research - with a contravention 52 should the PCN also have a letter ie a b c d attached advising which vehicles are prohibited as mine does not?

It just says "certain types of vehicle"

may have prob seen the same googly info :)

from what 'it' has said, it may have to be more specific depend on the circs? ie, it may depend on the signage. what was the prohibititive signage at the time.

 

then there is their site

https://www.kingston.gov.uk/info/200195/parking/821/moving_traffic_enforcement/3

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it looks like then it is re suffix 'm'?

seems to be re London only though (others having removed the suffix requirement).

wait see what the guys say.

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Did you enter Surbiton Crescent from the Maple Road Junction?

 

The Surbiton Road entry has No Entry signs with exception of Buses and Cycles (not Taxis)

 

Talk about total confusion.

 

 

 

I

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Drove down Palace Road and then turned left into Surbiton Crescent,

 

 

there aren't any warning signs along this route about the changes.

 

 

RBK have hit the news in both Daily Mail and Surrey Comet

- over 12000 PCN's issued since 14/11/2016!!

 

On the side I entered it does also say for access,

but people are still receiving PCN's for access as well.

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You are correct, no prior warning signs exist in Palace Road. Anglesea Road has none neither.

 

This is an experimental scheme and you need to request the Traffic Management Order to see the details and conditions.

 

In my opinion, as this stands the signage is not fit for purpose. The signage that exists is not even illuminated after dark so i am sure nothing is being enforced when it is dark.

 

I walked around there today and in 40 mins I counted about 15 vehicles in each direction. Incidentally I did not see a single cyclist. Clearly the experiment isn't working as this section of 80 yards of road is supposed the be part of the Tolworth cycle route. I haven't a clue where the cycle route is suppose to go after it leaves this section. Then next section includes a 1 in 5 hill.

 

Regarding the except access. There is a car park at the rear of the school for about 20 cars. Also some private dwellings, a electrical sub station and a proposed development site. I can only assume that Access refers to accessing these places. How the camera knows who is accessing and where.... Perhaps an experimental camera!

 

I suggest you find some help to make an appeal.

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I am really considering looking a job at RBK council, they must have so much fun. What do they smoke all day?

 

According to a Daily Mail comment on this story, residents were asked to give their Registration details and any friends that might visit them and these Reg Numbers will not be sent tickets! Yeah baby.

 

What are they on? Something also experimental i guess.

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Having driven through this junction on 11th, 15th , 16th and 22nd Nov I can confirm that PCN's are only being sent out if you approach Surbiton Crescent from Kingston. It was also reported in the press that the council was issuing 'warnings to drivers' (thisisourtownkingston - link removed]) presumably prior to going live on Nov 14th, although I clearly did not get one for driving through on 11th and I'd love to know why?

 

As usual, Kingston Council delights in the revenue it generates by not clearly or fairly advising the car drivers who it loves to target who in this case, have used this junction for years and are now being once again persecuted for financial gain.

 

Besides a clear lack of information, it was also quite evident that you (a) cannot accurately see the 'no entry signs' until you've already turned into the junction and (b) the 'camera' sign only becomes visible once you are inside the road, as it positioned to high and is obscured by an other sign behind it.

 

However, having photographed this junction on 22/11, I can now see that yesterday 10/12 the no entry signs have been moved and angled toward the on coming traffic, giving marginally better warning to approaching drivers.

 

Therefore, Kingston Council must have conceded that the existing signage was in fact 'insufficient' to warn drivers. As this appears to be the case, then surely this means that all PCN's issued between 14/11 and the time that they changed the signs (early December, I think although no date is given) must now be rendered invalid?

 

On the day I photographed this junction, I was there for ten minutes and saw at least as many cars drive through, completely unaware that there were being targeted. I think this alone proves exclusively how Kingston council has a duty of care to inform motorists that they could be penalised before they are fined.

 

However, as is clearly evident, Kingston Council carries out poor practice in this regard and this needs to stop as at best, it only gives a bad name to the borough and its staff.

 

Therefore, I would like to see that; all motorists receive a warning letter initially instead of a PCN. This, I believe is the only way to honestly and fairly let motorists know that road layouts have changed.

 

However, given the disgraceful and embarrassing amount of revenue this has so far generated for RBK, I am sure they would never agree to it.

 

I would also like to see; Kingston Council publicly accept that they need to amend their practices in this area and move to become more transparent with their intentions as should be good practice at all times for a local authority.

 

Over 12000 PCN's in a 'crescent' between Nov 14th and Dec 11th. Really?

 

Do the decent thing Kingston. You've clearly made a mistake. Start sending out your best apologies and refunds before the year is out.

Edited by steve arthur
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  • 2 weeks later...

I have 2 tickets both on Thursday evenings 8.10pmish, dark, unlit signage, the sign I saw was give way to oncoming traffic then I was through the gap. Not enough time to read and notice all the signs in the dark, I am not local, entered Surbiton Crescent from Palace Road which doesn't have any advance warnings. This is disgraceful, this council should be ashamed of themselves. If you view the signs during the day, and are aware, then yes it is clearly marked but too much signage poorly designed and confusing when approached at 20-30mph. Fuming

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  • 3 weeks later...

Yup been fined too!! However, look at the Traffic Management Order on the Kingston Council website. Google "Kingston Council TMO P236"

 

The schedule (page 2) says "Between 8am and 4:30pm on Mondays to Fridays inclusive" - doesn't this mean the TMO is not effective outside these hours?

 

My penalty was for a right turn into Surbiton Crescent at 17.45.

 

Am I missing something?

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  • 3 months later...
Thanks ericsbrother for your response.

 

How would I check if the Traffic Order is correctly in place?

 

Also have done a bit of research - with a contravention 52 should the PCN also have a letter ie a b c d attached advising which vehicles are prohibited as mine does not?

It just says "certain types of vehicle"

 

 

Hello!

Am new to the forum, so my apologies if am not doing things right.

I have 2 PCN am currently contesting, Kingston has rejected my appeal and now it's I have a hearing with the parking adjudicator. Just noted your point about letter 'm' and was wondering how you got on. Thanks would appreciate a quick response

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  • 1 month later...
Hi Starzwin.

 

If you want some advice on your case, please would you start a thread and outline the situation and your grounds of appeal.

 

This traffic restriction has caused a lot of aggro. Looking at everything, I simply wonder whether it is appropriate to describe the restriction as a prohibition to cars and motorbikes "except buses and taxis or for access". Secondly does anyone know how a council decides to make this prohibition versus describing the arrangement as a bus lane, "except for access" - which is what it really is. That would be much clearer but requires very different signage.

 

Somebody in this thread noticed that the signs are not illuminated at night but I believe this is not needed when the speed limit is 20 or less

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