VCS WINDSCREEN PCN Claimform -- incorrect reg! - Scunthorpe, wasn't a proper car park, it's VCS's site number 02871 ***Claim Discontinued***

[ericsbrother]

there are thousands of thread here that mention DR+, read some of them and you will see that the advice given in post#24 is not unique so why are you asking the question.

You cannot live in a bubble, you must learn from sources other than your own thread and then you will know what to ask and what we expect you to do in return. It will save a lot of time and effort and you will then hopefully gain some confidence so if the dodgy lawyers do send you a letter you will be looking forward to telling them what you think of them and their clients

[sirpercival]

Apologies - have not been able to carry out as extensive reading as I perhaps should have - wasn't fully aware of the distinction between the debt recovery letter and the letter I should expect at some point from their lawyers. I have a bit of free time this weekend (for the first time in a while!) so will have a look at some other posts.

 

Thanks for your help so far & apologies again for my current ignorance!

[sirpercival]

Hi there,

 

Couple of things

- it's been a fair while of having debt collection letters through every 4-6 weeks or so.

Have just had a letter (attached) through from Gladstones Solicitors which appears to essentially be the same as the debt recovery letters

(i.e. no actual court action as yet).

I presume I just need to sit on this until they actually take the case on?

 

Additionally I am looking to move house in the near future

- I'm aware I need to ensure that whoever is chasing me has my latest contact details so I don't get a CCJ against me without knowing

- how is best to go about this?

Do I just send whichever debt agency/solicitor firm a letter saying what my new address is and for all further information to be sent there?

 

Thanks in advance

 

(and apologies it's not a scanned image, I don't have (and can't really afford) a scanner at home)

gladdy letter.pdf

[BazzaS]

"Dear Gladstones.

Any claim by your client is denied, and will be defended robustly if they decide to issue proceedings.

 

My address until is as current : , but from that date will be ."

 

Copy to DR Plus, and VCS Ltd (to cover all bases in case any of them wanted to go for a sneaky unopposed CCJ).

Minimum of proof of posting (free of charge) for each (and staple these to a copy of the letter, to keep for if they try a 'backdoor CCJ' (and / or recorded or special delivery if you are feeling flush!)

[ericsbrother]

Agree but dont be polite to any of them,

 

let them all know that their demands are spurious and denied in their entirety and let VCS know that Gladdys are getting a reputaion in court that makes judges vent their spleen just for appearing on the paperwork and you will happily add to this reputation at their cost should they not see sense

[sirpercival]

Hi again,

 

Appears the address change was noted and they've decided to use a different firm?

 

Do I need to actually respond to this one?

 

Thanks in advance.

Letter.pdf

[dx100uk]

nope you've made your point

just don't ignore a claimform should they be that stupid to issue one.

 

dx

[ericsbrother]

BWL are the parking worlds second favourite waste of money after Gladdys. They still cant be bothered to remind their client that the "initial £60 legal costs" arent legal so that tells you all you need to know about the honesty and integrity of these firms

[dx100uk]

open 

 

please complete this:

 

 

 

[sirpercival]

Evening, thanks for reopening so quickly - see claim details below as requested.

 

Name of the Claimant : Vehicle Control Services Limited

 

Claimants Solicitors: DCB Legal LTD

 

Date of issue – 31/08/21

 

Date for AOS - 18/09/21

 

Date to submit Defence - 02/10/21 (Saturday, so submit by 4pm on 01/10/21

 

[NOTE : WHEN CALCULATING YOUR TIMELINE - PLEASE REMEMBER THAT THE DATE ON THE CLAIMFORM IS ONE IN ANY COUNT [an example: Issue date 01.03.2020: + 19 days  = 19.03.2020 :+ 14 days to submit defence = 02.04.2014: a total of 33 days]

 

What is the claim for – the reason they have issued the claim? Please type out their particulars of claim (verbatim) less any identifiable data and round the amounts up/down.

(Particulars of Claim are in the box to the left of the N1 page 1)

1. The Defendant (D) is indebted to the Claimant (C) for a Parking Charge(s) issued to the vehicle XXXXXXX at The Garages S**ntho

2. The PCN details are 29/11/2016, VCXXXXXXXXX

3. The PCN(s) was issued on private land owned or managed by C. THe cwhicle was parked in breach of the terms on Cs signes (the Contract), thus incurring the PCN(s)

4. The driver agreed to pay within 28 days but did not. D is liable as the driver or keeper. Despite requests the PCN(s) is outstanding. The Contract entitles C to damages. AND THE CLAIMANT CLAIMS

   1. £160 being the total of the PCN(s) and damages

   2. Interest at a rate of 8% per annum pursuant to s.69 of the County Courts act 1984 from the date hereof at a daily rate of £0.02 until judgement or sooner payment

   3. Costs and court fees

Total of circa £280

 

 

**IMPORTANT** WE NEED TO SEE THE FULL POC MINUS YOUR PERS DETAILS>> NOT AN ABRIDGED VERSION**THIS MUST INCLUDE THE LOCATION

 

What is the value of the claim? (rounded)

 

 

Amount Claimed £197

court fees £35

legal rep fees £50 

Total Amount £282

[dx100uk]

can we have the full address of the carpark as in their POC, you no longer need to worry about scunthorpe, we've fixed that glitch 

 

  pop up on the MCOL website detailed on the claimform.
.
 register as an individual
 note the long gateway number given
 then log in
.
 select respond to a claim and select the start AOS box.
.
 then using the details required from the claimform
.
 defend all
 leave jurisdiction unticked.
 click thru to the end
 confirm and exit MCOL.
.
 get a CPR 31:14 request running to the solicitors [if one is not listed send to the claimant]

no need to sign anything
.
you DO NOT await the return of paperwork.
you MUST file a defence regardless by day 33 from the date on the claimform [1 in the count]
 

…………...

 

 

 

dx

[sirpercival]

Thanks, responded on the MCOL site, am working on the CPR 31:14 letter.

 

DCB Legal are listed as the contact for any documentation etc. do I want to send this to them or VCS (or both)? 

 

The address given on the claim form was just "The Garages, Scuntho" (their misspelling)

 

If you need the precise location, these are the coordinates according to Google Maps - 53.59411510234528, -0.6469458629122934

 

Thanks again.

Edited September 5, 2021 by sirpercival
Added query on CPR31:14 addressee

[lookinforinfo]

You never did post up the original Notice to Driver issued back in November 2016. You obviously have kept it?  When their Notice to Keeper/Driver arrived it [not that  there is such a thing ] did it have  your correct reg. number?

Their NTK is not PoFA compliant in any way. 

First under PoFA, the only way to obtain the keeper's details is via the DVLA  [PoFA s11 [2] [3] not by the driver ringing VCS  or another method of identifying the driver.

Second the wording of the NTK MUST comply with the PoFA wording. Nowhere does it state that if they cannot ID the driver they can assume that the keeper is the driver. Nor do the courts accept that presumption.

Third there is no such animal as a Notice to Keeper/Driver

 

Erics brother was right. To get round the fact that they got your reg number wrong, they should have sent you an NTK as if the Notice to Driver had been cancelled. IE they should have  issued the NTK to arrive at your place within 14 days. To arrive as yours did around 40 days later with a totally different reg. does not compute.

 

I take it that you did not contact them between your first post here and receiving their NTK since there was a fair amount of time between the two incidents? If you did they will mention it in Court which might alter the course of events as they think it might help their case.

[sirpercival]

Evening,

 

Yep, still have the original NTD with the incorrect reg, did not contact them after that being slapped on my car, just waited for the NTK to come, when that (well, notice to "Keeper/Driver") arrived that DID have the correct reg, but like you say was way outside the 14 day period mentioned.

 

The original is tucked away safe in my file of important stuff (along with God knows how many DCA chaser letters for the same thing) ready to produce in court should they actually take it that far.

 

Wondering if there's any chance I can screw them with a counterclaim for harassment based on pursuing a debt they must know they have no claim to, but tbf as long as I can make sure any case is dropped/dismissed I'll be good with that alone!

[lookinforinfo]

Their only claim to fame is that you apparently parked on private land. But for them to win against you they need to have got all their ducks in a row. 

 

Their NTD is flawed, their NTK is flawed so they cannot pursue you as the keeper. So they have to prove that you were the driver which is not automatic though it would help if you had other named drivers on your insurance policy or perhaps your parents drove your car on occasion. Of course it may depend on how you appealed. Did you say "the driver " or "I " when appealing or didn't mention either.

 

Most Judges do accept that No Stopping is not capable of forming a contract but not all do. Also as we have not seen the notices at the garages especially at the entrance to see what the say and how long you stayed there though you can always claim that you were trespassing and VCS cannot sue for trespass. 

 

Photos of the area would be a help though No Stopping cannot form a contract with motorists.There are a lot of them at airports where VCS seems to have infested. Mostly they lose but now and again a Judge does come up with a different judgement possibly because whatever else, the motorist did park there when not supposed to.

 

You have a lot of things going for you but there is always  a chance it could go against you if not properly prepared and the more strings to your bow the better.

 

And their WS may well give you further ammunition as they try to twist or evade the fact that they got your registration wrong.

 

 

 

[sirpercival]

Hi,

 

I technically never appealed - when communicating with them I've never really mentioned the car being parked by anyone or not, pretty much just said that they have not followed the terms set out by the PoFA and as such any claim is baseless and I will defend it robustly - not sure they could infer that I was the driver from that. Unfortunately neither parent drives and I was the only named driver, however of course people do have third party cover to drive other cars (with permission) so I guess that might help?

 

The "car park" isn't really a car park at all, it's just some garages down a side street - there was no entrance signage from recollection, looking at google street view I'm not sure there's any signage whatsoever any more, so I suspect they no longer even manage that area. I've also had a brief look on the North Lincs Planning Application site and haven't managed to find any planning for any signage in that area, not sure if this helps or not.

 

I'm very much hoping they produce a doctored NTD if I'm honest, that'd make my day.

 

I'll start working on a vague defence ready to submit nearer the deadline but will still keep the NTD issue under wraps.

[sirpercival]

Draft defence - any feedback welcome!

 

The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim are vague and are generic in nature which fails to comply  with CPR 16.4.  The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made.

 

It is admitted that Defendant was the recorded keeper of the vehicle, the Claimant is not in a position to state if they were the driver at the time.

 

Item 1 & 3 of the PoC is denied. It’s denied that the claimant ever entered into a contract to breach any terms and conditions of the stated private land. As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance.  The Claimant was only contracted to provide car park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the car park is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner. Further it is denied that the Claimant’s signage is capable of creating a legally binding contract.

 

Item 4 is denied, there are no contractual costs and interest cannot be accrued on a speculative charge.

 

The Defendant also contends that the terms of the PoFA Act have not been followed and as such the pursuit of the claimed debt by the Claimant amounts to harassment.

 

Notwithstanding the above on 06 Sept 2021 the Defendant made a request pursuant to CPR 31.14 for the Claimant to disclose its necessary evidence in support of its claim. To this date the claimant has failed to respond to said request.

  

The Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety.  It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the recovery or any recovery at all.

[FTMDave]

Did VCS really number their points as you set out in post 35?  They generally just write a generic wall of text.

[sirpercival]

Yes and no, they numbered them but didn't separate the points with new lines or anything, was just flowing into one another.

[FTMDave]

The points you've made in themselves are fine.  The problem is the tactics.

 

In the past we've had Caggers who prepared long, detailed defences, full of superb legal arguments that had had been excellently researched ...

 

... which gave the crooked solicitors at the other end advance notice of the defence and they had months & months in which to think up lies to counter it.

 

Best to keep the defence as generic as possible. 

 

After all VCS's PoC are vague, so what's good for the goose ...

 

At  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/393251-received-a-court-claim-from-a-private-parking-speculative-invoice-how-to-deal-with-it-hereupdated-jun-2021/  scroll down to  Q2) How should I defend?  Just use that generic defence.

 

If you can, adapt the defence to refer directly to the points in the PPC's Particulars of Claim as you've been doing above.  A good example is in post 66 here  https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/431494-vcs-spycar-pcn-paploc-now-claimform-no-stopping-47-stopping-in-a-restricted-bus-stop-stand-robin-hood-airport-doncaster/page/3/#comments       

[honeybee13]

sirpercival, your work won't be wasted, you may need those arguments for a witness statement later on. Dave is right though, don't give too much away at this stage.

 

HB

[sirpercival]

Ok, thanks folks - will use the generic defence as linked and keep that aside for if/when I need to flesh things out down the line

 

Quick one, the original NTD had a max amount of £100 on it (reduced to £60 for payment in however many days) - am I right in interpreting the "total of PCNs and damages" of £160 to amount to double recovery?

 

Ta

[dx100uk]

well p'haps unlawful extra unicorn foodtax.

 

dx

 

[FTMDave]

Yes, as covered by point 5 of the generic defence.

[sirpercival]

Thanks, thought as much but wanted to double check before I included that point in my defence.

 

Final question for now I think - is there any point in counter claiming or is it more effort than it's worth? I've previously stated in letters that they would risk a counter claim for harassment given their (now 5 year!) pursuit of a debt which is not valid, but I presume I'd have to flesh a lot out in order to do that and I'm aware there's a cost to it to.