Parking Eye - Claim form - Rishworth Centre Retail Park, Dewsbury

[Alipeeps]

Have received in the post today a PCN from Parking Eye for over-staying in a car park at a retail park in Dewsbury. Details as follows:

 

Date of the infringement: 31 August 2016

 

Date on the NTK: 6 September 2016

 

Date received: 10 September 2016

 

Does the NTK mention schedule 4 of The Protections of Freedoms Act 2012? Yes

 

Is there any photographic evidence of the event? The letter includes 2 time-stamped photos of my car registration plate entering and leaving the car park.

 

Have you appealed? Not yet - wanted to get advice from here first.

 

Have you had a response? See above

Who is the parking company? Parking Eye

 

I am aware that the advice on dealing with these PCNs has changed from the "ignore it, they have no legal standing" advice of previous years so wanted to get some advice on how best to respond.

 

I take it I need to appeal to Parking Eye, which will naturally be rejected, and then to POPLA?

 

On what grounds is it best to appeal? I did overstay in the car park by about 30 minutes (though tbh I can honestly say I have parked in that car park many times and never noticed the signs stating the time limit etc - am guessing they are probably high up (above eye level) on lampposts as that seems the favourite place to put them these days) basically because the appointments we had (with the bank and then in the mobile phone shop) took longer than expected.

 

The advice on the appeals and complaints procedure on the reverse of the letter says to include things like store receipts or proof of purchases etc. Do I include the store receipt from the mobile phone shop? So I bother the staff member we had an appointment with at the bank and ask her to send me confirmation of our appointment time etc? :/

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

[ericsbrother]

how long were you there and how long is the allowed parking period?

 

 

Commonly, planning permission is granted for the builing of the development with a customer parking period set at 2 or 3 hours.

 

 

The developers cannot change this and nor can the parking co but they often do as it it the only way they can make money from a free car park.

 

Check with the local council, if the development is a recent one it may well be on their planning portal. If not, you will have to ask the planning dept about the application and consent.

 

 

Whilst you have thir attention ask them about planning permission for the signage and cameras under the advertising hoardings regs of the Town and Country Planning Act 2007.

 

 

They must have pp or they are committing a criminal offenec and that means no contract can ever be formed.

 

when we know about the above we will suggest a form of words to make an appeal to PE and then POPLA if necessary. if they are in the wrong they will cancel the demand rather than risk it becoming public knowledge and they have to pay back every penny they have taken fo the other unfortunates.

[Alipeeps]

Hi all,

 

Really hoping someone can help me out with some advice.

 

A few months back my husband and I parked in a car park on a retail park in Dewsbury and subsequently received a PCN from Parking Eye for over-staying (by a whopping 20 minutes).

 

 

I didn't submit a POPLA appeal at the time because I'd never done one before and I wasn't sure on what grounds I should appeal

(I admit we over-stayed but I didn't see signage at the time and don't consider a 20 minute over-stay to warrant a large fine).

 

 

I did post on here asking for advice but didn't get any response and then the time ran out for submitting an appeal.

 

I was assuming they would send a few chasing letters and then let the matter drop, as these companies have done in the past, but

 

 

I have now received a County Court claim form so it seems they intend to pursue this.

 

I fully intend to fight this, as I am not going to bullied into paying these cowboys £175 just because we were delayed getting back to the car on our shopping trip.

 

Can anyone please advise me on what I need to include in my defence and how best to fight this?

 

Thanks in advance....

 

The particulars of the claim state:

 

1.Claim for monies outstanding from the defendant, as registered keeper, in relation to a Parking Charge, issues 06/09/16, for parking on private land in breach of the terms and conditions (the contract).

 

 

ParkingEye's automated number plate recognition system, monitoring Rishworth Centre Retail Park (1), Dewsbury, Railway Street, Dewsbury, West Yorkshire, WF12 8EQ,

 

 

captured vehicle [my reg] entering and leaving the car park, overstaying the max stay time.

 

 

The signage, clearly displayed at the entrance to and throughout the car park, states that this is private land, is managed by ParkingEye Ltd, and is a max stay site, along with other T+Cs by which those who park on site agreed to be bound.

 

 

In accordance with the T+Cs set out in the signage, the Parking Charge became payable.

Notice under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 has been given under Sch 4, making the keeper liable. The claim is in reference to Parking Charge(s) [xxxxxxxxxxx]

[Bazooka Boo]

Ericsbrother will pick this up and advise you.

 

Have you acknowledged the claim yet?

[Alipeeps]

Ericsbrother will pick this up and advise you.

 

Have you acknowledged the claim yet?

 

Not yet, no. I wanted to ask for some advice first.

 

The form says I have 14 days from day of service to respond. So I have until 10 December.

 

If I respond only to acknowledge the claim, how long do I then have to file a defence? Is it 28 days?

 

Thanks for your response.

[honeybee13]

Hello there.

 

Thank you for the POCs. Could you also fill in the information on the forum stikky and post that up please? It will help us to advise you.

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?465231-Received-a-Court-Claim-From-A-Private-parking-Speculative-invoice-How-To-Deal-With-It-HERE***Updated-Aug-2016***(2-Viewing)-nbsp

 

HB

[dx100uk]

it is NOT A FINE!

 

 

it a speculative invoice

[Alipeeps]

it is NOT A FINE!

 

it a speculative invoice

 

Apologies. I am aware it is not a fine.

I used the word in error in referring the the ridiculous amount of money they want to charge me for over-staying by 20 minutes.

 

Thanks for your help honeybee13, the details are as follows:

 

Name of the Claimant : ParkingEye Ltd

 

Date of issue : 21 November 2016

 

Date to acknowledge= 09.12.16

 

 

date to submit defence = 23.12.16

 

 

 

What is the claim for:

 

1.Claim for monies outstanding from the defendant, as registered keeper, in relation to a parking charge, issued 06/09/16, for parking on private land in breach of the terms and conditions (the contract).

 

2.ParkingEye's automated number plate recognition system, monitoring Rishworth Centre Retail Park (1), Dewsbury, Railway Street, Dewsbury, West Yorkshireicon, WF12 8EQ,

captured vehicle [my reg] entering and leaving the car park, overstaying the max stay time.

 

3.The signage, clearly displayed at the entrance to and throughout the car park, states that this is private land, is managed by ParkingEye Ltd, and is a max stay site, along with other T+Cs by which those who park on site agreed to be bound.

In accordance with the T+Cs set out in the signage, the parking chargeicon became payable.

 

4.Notice under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 has been given under Sch 4, making the keeper liable. The claim is in reference to Parking Charge(s) [xxxxxxxxxxx]

 

What is the value of the claim?

 

Amount claimed: £100

Court fee: £25

Legal representative's costs: £50

 

Total amount: £175

Has the claim been issued by the original creditor

or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim ? Parking Eye

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? Not relevant

[ericsbrother]

Is the place near to you,

if so get down there an photograph the entrance to the land from the public highway.

Make a note of the size and position of any signs that you see, including how big the font size is.

 

 

You are supposed to be able to read the small print from the drivers seat of a car whilst going past it for the contract to be considered to be enforceable

but some judges say that you are expected to wander about the car park looking at all of the signs

so detail is needed to make it clear whether they were easily visible under the conditions you were faced with at the time (ie, night, heavy rain, heavy traffic etc)

 

Also, check with the local council whether PE have planning permission for their signage.

If they dont, keep this quiet for the moment and be prepared to include this information in your evidence bundle.

 

 

Reason I say dont reveal this yet is becasue the buggers will apply fro retrospective permission and turn their criminal offence into a binding contract but if they only have a fortnights notice you intend to use this against them they wont have time to do the dirty on you.

 

Now as the site is a retail park they more than likely have a contract with the developer

but it is worth doinga CPR 31.14 discovery request to see who their contract is with as it may be a managing agent and that means they are unlikely to have the correct permissions. read about this iin other threads.

Edited November 28, 2016 by honeybee13
Paras.

[Alipeeps]

Thank you.

I did go back and take some pictures a few weeks back to check what the signage is.

The one at the entrance is up on a lampost and under a tree

- there is no way you can properly read it as you are turning into the entrance.

 

 

The ones throughout the car park are also high up on lamp posts and contain a section of *very* small smallprint

- the one nearest to where I parked is so high up that even when standing right under it you can't read the small print.

 

Sign at entrance:

 

Signs throughout car park:

 

Sign nearest to where I parked:

 

Photo taken standing as close as it's possible to get to the sign nearest to where I parked:

 

I will look into the planning permission and contract issues. Thanks so much for your help.

 

Am I understanding correctly that my only real chance of defending this is proving that they did something wrong (signage not correct, no planning permission, contracts not correct etc)

and that an argument of "£100 charge for overstaying for 20 minutes is excessive and unjustifiable" etc will do no good?

Car Park Signage Photos.pdf

[ericsbrother]

so, how big are the signs- how big is the font size on the signs.

You need to take a tape measure with you.

 

Your only defence at the moment is inadequate signage

so you had better be able to show that to anyone passing it that it isnt obvious what it is about.

 

We need to see very clear images of the signs,

especially any that are different in wording, size, colour etc.

 

PE will be telling the court there are 32 signs at least 2 metres across and without your photos and measurements they will be believed.

 

On the plus side the sign at the entrance refer to other terms and conditions that are not on that sign.

This means that the sign isnt an offer of a contract but an invitation to treat so read up on that as well.

 

parking co's have been defeated on several occasions over such things but you had better understand the difference beween them before you tell a judge that this isnt a contract and you dont ahve to accept the small print offered elsewhere.

 

So, not a contractual offer and no planning permission... things are looking up for you

[Alipeeps]

Am at a loss as to what to do over this claim.

 

 

On principal I hate the thought of paying them anything because it's all just a massive [problem] and they make their money by bullying people.

 

 

from the information on this thread it seems the court will likely uphold their ridiculous claim for £175 for an overstay of only 20 mins and my only way out of it is to argue legal technicalities to do with the exact size and placement of signage and the difference between offer of contract and invitation to treat.

 

 

I really don't have either the time or the legal knowledge to be feel confident in arguing the case on this basis.

 

Can anyone tell me,

if I do defend the claim,

what's the worst possible outcome?

 

 

If I defend and it doesn't go my way, judge agrees with them, what does that mean?

Does it cost me more?

Do I have to pay their legal fees too?

Do I get a CCJ against me?

 

I'm feeling like I'm going to have to pay just to make this go away.

[dx100uk]

you'll get a CCJ by default if you don't defend

doesn't cost you anything to defend it.

cost would be the same.

 

stop faffin around and get those sign details sorted.

 

if you simply cant be bothered to help us to help you

then go pay it and get fleeced.

 

there are 100's more here that need our help

[Bazooka Boo]

You don't pay parking lie, the information given by EB is 100%, have you gone back to the site and measured the signs, wording?

 

You ALWAYS defend against these crooks.

[Alipeeps]

you'll get a CCJ by default if you don't defend

doesn't cost you anything to defend it.

cost would be the same.

 

stop faffin around and get those sign details sorted.

 

if you simply cant be bothered to help us to help you

then go pay it and get fleeced.

 

there are 100's more here that need our help

 

I do genuinely appreciate people offering help and advice but wow, that's a bit harsh.

 

You obviously all have lots of experience of this but I have NONE so questions like

"If I defend and lose is it going to cost me even more money?" are really important ones for me.

 

I literally haven't had a day spare in the past 2 weeks to drive over there and measure the signs.

I am not confident that I will be able, in the next 2 weeks, to even understand

- let alone argue in court

- the difference between offer of contract and invitation to treat.

 

 

Can you not see why I am stressed and scared over this and struggling to understand if I even have a chance of winning this or if defending it is going to make things worse and end up with me having a CCJ against me?

[Bazooka Boo]

Defending will NOT make things worse, but you need to get all of the evidence first.

 

They prey on people like like you as they know you're easy money.

 

The fact that you were shopping on this site, and undoubtedly have receipts for purchases from retail outlets, speaks volumes of just how much the stores value your custom by using cowboy parking companies.

[Alipeeps]

Defending will NOT make things worse, but you need to get all of the evidence first.

 

They prey on people like like you as they know you're easy money.

 

The fact that you were shopping on this site, and undoubtedly have receipts for purchases from retail outlets, speaks volumes of just how much the stores value your custom by using cowboy parking companies.

 

I doubt I still have receipts from that shopping trip as it was months ago.

Will that make a difference in court?

 

Am trying to read around on the threads on here to get some understanding of how to go about defending this but there's a lot of jargon that I don't understand and I keep coming up with more questions..

. e.g. will it go against me with the judge because I didn't respond to the original PCN/do a POPLA appeal? (I did post on here at the time asking for advice as to on what grounds I should do the POPLA appeal but I didn't get a response and the deadline for appealing ran out)?

 

I've tried googling for information on invitation to treat

- as that (and sign placement/size etc) seems to be my only avenues to defend the case

- and I'm struggling to make sense of it.

 

 

I also can't find any information online as to whether there are specific requirements regarding size and placement of signs that the parking companies have to abide by.

.. so does it come down to me arguing that the signage is insufficient and them arguing it is sufficient and the judge decides who he agrees with?

[dx100uk]

if you pay the CCJ within 28days IF they succeed it wont get registered on your file.

so don't worry there.

 

as for court, it might not get there

defending wont make things worse for you

 

is there not a friend neighbour mate or someone that can go take some for you?

yes it must be stressful not having the time to do things away from work hours etc

 

but its worth a shot, to defend

[Alipeeps]

if you pay the CCJ within 28days IF they succeed it wont get registered on your file.

so don't worry there.

 

as for court, it might not get there

defending wont make things worse for you

 

is there not a friend neighbour mate or someone that can go take some for you?

yes it must be stressful not having the time to do things away from work hours etc

 

but its worth a shot, to defend .

 

Thank you for the reassurance.

 

 

I will try and find time to drive over there tomorrow.

My husband works away during the week so Mon-Fri I am looking after 2 kids alone and have to fit everything in around school runs and appointments and after-school clubs and PTA meetings and lord knows what else..

. and this time of year is crazy busy with school and family and I've had things happening every weekend day for the past few weekends!

 

Okay. So I am going to defend.

I'm going to go online and do the AOS and that will give me a further 2 weeks to submit my defence, yes?

Then I'm going to go and take measurement photos of the signs tomorrow.

 

If anyone can help me out with how to word my defence

- especially e.g. that the lack of T&Cs on the sign at the entrance constitutes invitation to treat rather than offer of contract, I would be eternally grateful.

 

Thank you so much for answering my worries and reassuring me.

[dx100uk]

blimey you've not done AOS?

 

 

its due TODAY

go get it done!

[dx100uk]

pop up on the MCOL website detailed on the claimform.

 

 

register as an individual

note the long number given

then log in

 

 

select respond to a claim and select the AOS box.

 

 

then using the details required from the claimform

 

 

defend all

leave jurisdiction unticked.

click thru to the end

confirm and exit MCOL.

[Alipeeps]

blimey you've not done AOS?

 

 

its due TODAY

go get it done!

 

I hadn't done it because I was trying to decide whether to defend... and AOS only applies if you are defending, yes? And then when I tried to do it earlier today the stupid website crashed! :/

 

Have managed to submit it now.

[Alipeeps]

pop up on the MCOL website detailed on the claimform.

 

 

register as an individual

note the long number given

then log in

 

 

select respond to a claim and select the AOS box.

 

 

then using the details required from the claimform

 

 

defend all

leave jurisdiction unticked.

click thru to the end

confirm and exit MCOL.

 

Had a nightmare trying to register on the site earlier... it would give me an account number and then, instead of going back to the main page, it would spool and spool and fail to load and then say the website was unavailable! Argh!

 

Got it sorted now though. Now just need to put together my defence.

 

Can I ask... are there actually any standards/requirements for signage that the car park companies are supposed to adhere to? Or does it come down to the judge's opinion on whether the signage (size and placement etc) is sufficient?

Is it worth mentioning in my defence that, as well as the size and placement of the signs, the small print t&cs on the sign nearest where I parked is so small it's impossible to read it even when standing right under the sign? Surely I can't be deemed to have agreed to T&Cs I can't even read?

[dx100uk]

have you sent PR our CPR 31:14?

 

if not you need too

 

[Your address]

.

[Their address]

.

[Date]

.

Dear Sir or Madam,

.

Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No:

.

CPR 31.14 Request

.

On (date) I received the claim form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) county court.

.

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest and counter claim all of your claim.

.

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

.

1. proof of assignment from the landlord to create contracts and make claims in your own name.

.

2.proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and Country Planning Act 2007

the contract between VCS and the landowner that assigns the right to enter into contracts with the public and make claims in their own name,

Planning Permission for their signage under the Town and Country Planning Act 2007,

copies of the notice to driver,

notice to keeper and any other correspondence from VCS or Gladstones to the defendant.

Give them 14 days to comply

.

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are disclosed at your earliest convenience..

.

Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy.

.

Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

.

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

.

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

.

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request please confirm in your response.

.

Yours faithfully

.

TYPE YOUR NAME do not sign IT

 

PS AOS is not only for defending...

 

and yes there are strict sign designs that must be xomplied by as well as planning permission etc.

 

I've just had a quick look around

and I found your old thread from September and its merged with this one now for history..

 

of which it shows you did get a reply by the way

but you must of missed it

 

EB asked these questions back in September before popla

shame you didn't see it then...

[Alipeeps]

Thanks hugely for all your help and for merging the threads.

Not sure why I didn't get the notification of the original reply.

 

I will send off the CPR 31:14 asap.

 

Should I try and find out about planning permission myself before mentioning that though?

It was mentioned above that otherwise they might apply for retrospective PP?

Where do I even look to find out about planning permission, the council?

 

Do you know where I can find details of the strict sign design requirements, so I can assess these signs against them?

 

Sorry if I am asking stupid/obvious questions... this is all new to me!

 

I swear I used to be a reasonably intelligent person before I had small people to constantly run around after...

 

I've obviously misunderstood the claim form guidance notes because from reading it I understood AOS to be only if you were acknowledging and want time to submit defence.

 

It doesn't say you can AOS and then have time to pay...

it says if you want to agree with the claim and need time to pay you have to submit form N9A.

 

Sorry I am so rubbish at this. Your help and support is hugely appreciated.

 

Ah, I've just managed a bit of googling to find out how to search planning permission registers and it looks like they do have planning permission for "Erection of signs" (doesn't say how many or where) granted in May 2014.