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    • Oh god! How silly!   I had so many different tabs and word documents open , cutting and pasting different bits I think I’ve copied in the wrong one.   Just had to nip out. I’ll post the correct version ASAP! X
    • Thank you for your response. I've read through some of the threads, however I haven't found any in a similar situation to mine where the overall outcome of the investigation has been posted (whether it was an out of court settlement or a conviction that resulted in a criminal record).    I'm aware that what typically happens is that you're taken to court where they give you a £1000 fine and a criminal record of 12 months (or 11 years if its an enhanced DBS check). This is the information I received following contacting a the TFL legal advice team.   
    • urm.. that's a telecom defence?? why not adapt the one I pointed you too??    
    • Thank you all again.   I think the word story is quite apt as it is clear from the 29 points over 6 pages that my parents have insisted lots of frankly irrelevant and often untrue things have been included in the solicitors letter.   Here is me filling in the gaps!   There was a dispute over a will in respect of your grandfather's house but the dispute was eventually abandoned and it seems that the house was apportioned to your mother and her brother who presumably were the only two children. The will was unsigned and so we could say that the house passed to the two of them under the rules of intestacy.   Not abandoned, it went to court and the court decided it should be sold and the £ divided between my Mother and my Uncle who were the only two children. So maybe they did own it whilst on the market? You then decided to buy the house for £50,000 and presumably the money you paid was divided between your mother and your uncle – who were the owners of the house.   Correct, it went on the market, a few people viewed it, my parents were awkward towards these potential buyers and then I made the offer to the estate agent and purchased it. This was in 1999. We talking about 20 years ago here and so in respect of most legal questions I would have thought that some limitation period applied. (However the issue of the trust has been raised – and this wouldn't be affected by limitation) However, presumably the house was bought at a proper value given the market at the time and any work that it needed doing. Presumably the house was properly conveyed.   Exactly, 20 years is ridiculous, and during that time my Father could have purchased it from me, instead of purchasing their own council house, if they really wanted to it 'back' as they keep saying. Yes market value in need of work and all above board. Although a lot of things have passed – including home improvements, tenancies et cetera, from the story you have told us, neither your parents nor your uncle have been involved in this at all. My Uncle has also sadly passed away.   I obtained additional borrowing to fund the work needed in 2008 (not mentioned in letter obviously) and have found some receipts, emails and mortgage letter to back this up, but in the letter my parents claim they paid for all this and carried out the work as I ‘had little interest in the property’ also all correspondence from letting agent is to me, but in letter claims by Father did all these and ‘I merely singed the tenancy’ which is rubbish.   One weird thing, the garden shed is still full of my Grandad's tools and my parents have the only key to this, have visited it randomly and instructed a builder person we both know over the years to trim the hedges. This was always been behind my back and have asked them to let me know or I can do it. I spoke to him yesterday and they have always paid him cash, so no paper trail.   Now you have received a letter from your parents saying that the house is really theirs and that you have simply been holding it on trust for them and they now want it back. Is this a reasonable summary of what has happened?   Yes, although the ‘trust’ that is mentioned is literally something they have made up, assumed or otherwise. There is absolutely nothing to my knowledge of this kind in place.   Although you have written a fair bit about bills, tenancies, and that you have lived in your parents home for some of this 20 years, I'm not sure what relevance that has to the problem. I have to say that your explanation is very unclear. A bit rambling in fact. If you think that part of the story is relevant then maybe you'd like to express it all a little more clearly and say in what way you think it is relevant to the problem.   Reason being it is referred to in the letter and quite representative of the whole letter, rambling. My point was it is not true and I am the one who has paid for these. It’s almost like they are trying to paint me as someone collecting the rent money whilst the did all the hard work and paid for things. You are much more familiar with the story then I am but I don't see that those factors are terribly important on the brief understanding that I have. if if any money is owed to your parents because of you having lived with them et cetera then it seems to me that that is a separate matter and has nothing to do with your ownership of the property.   Agreed You say that you have received a letter from solicitors claiming first of all that there is a constructive trust or that you might be subject to a proprietary estoppel. In terms of the estoppel, that doctrine is only available in very particular circumstances and could not be used to attack you in any event. Estoppel, whether it is proprietary or promissory can only be used as a defence. So the question of estoppel in this situation is completely irrelevant, in my view, although I don't see any basis for one in any event.   Lets hope so So what remains is the possibility of a constructive trust. It seems to me to be highly unlikely that there is such a trust and I think that the first question needs to be asked is on what basis they consider that there is a constructive trust. Secondly, of course, even if there was a constructive trust, on the basis of what you have told us, it wouldn't only be your mother who was the beneficiary, it would also be your uncle. Furthermore, if you were a constructive trustee then at the very least you would be entitled to recover all of the expenses that you had laid out over 30 years – including the cost of the property plus interest – less any financial benefit that you had accrued from renting it out and so forth.   Good point about me being a trustee, if, such a thing were in place. I had a google of the meaning and I honestly don’t feel it meets any of the criteria. I'm not sure how good this analysis is. This is well out of my experience – but I would suggest that you consider it and see whether any of it rings true. I would also start making a very detailed account of all the money which you have spent over the years on the property and also a detailed account of all the benefits you have accrued from it. I wouldn't supply this to their solicitor but if you end up having to instruct your own lawyer then I'm sure that you may be asked for this if there is any suspicion that a constructive trust may exist. Frankly it sounds like a load of rubbish to me but we will be very interested if you will keep us up to date. So there you have it. No particular answers. Just a few unsupported and unqualified opinions     I do really appreciate your time and effort on this. Yes, when I read it all again, rubbish does spring to mind.   My parents have been very challenging to say the least and have no idea of the consequence of their actions. To be honest, they have almost shot themselves in the foot as there is so much detail in the letter, lots of which is untrue and I can prove this. If it ever got to court and I really hope it doesn’t, I can only think this would go against them.   I really do think the solicitor (who is the same one that rinsed them ££££ over the will) is just charging them for this letter, which may have been a good few hours with the unneeded detail, knowing fully well this wont go anywhere!   Another thing the letter requests that I confirm I wont sell, rent out or re-mortgage the property!!! I have literally just started a new mortgage and need tenants to pay the rent, I don't think this request hold any water at all?   I hope this does come to nothing and hopefully helps others along the way!
    • god no never invite pointless letter tennis   dx  
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1st Credit claiming - old HSBC OD

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And the balance on that card is still outstanding?

Sorry for all the q's

It just that we often see HSBC do things like dump outstanding card debt into an OF balance or make you take out a managed loan to pay things off and then dump that in the OD...

 

Can you look at the statements and see if any large sums. Were dumped in it?

It anything unusual?


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The balance of the credit care is still outstanding too.

It is being pursued too but they have given up on that currently.

It hasn't been dumped onto the OD balance

 

CR 31.14 printed and sent by recorded delivery on Thursday

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He has had acknowledgement from Moon Beever of his request.

 

They say "Thank you for your letter of 26 April 2018. We have requested the docments listed from our client and will forward them to you once received. Signed Moon Beever"

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Do not miss your defence filing date no matter what


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Loads here already


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1."The Claimant is the assignee of Hsbc Bank Plc.Debt in the sun of £2664 assigned on 23/3/2016. Statuatory notices of assignment were sent to the Defendant.

2.On 01/03/2018 the Claimant changed its name from 1st credit (Finance) Ltd to Intrum Finance Ltd.

3.The debt is for arrears on an overdraft facility and the account was opened by the original creditor on or about 28/06/1985 under reference xyz. The Defendant used the credit facilities.

4.On 19/05/2015 the account defaulted with an outstanding amount of £2,302.

5.The Claimant and its predecessors in title demanded repayment of the sum due.

6.In breach of the contract the Defendant failed to repay the sums due

 

7.AND THE CLAIMANT CLAIMS

1. The sum of £2,302

2. Statutory INTEREST pursuant t S.69 County Courts Act 1984 at 8% per annum from 05/04/2016 until Judgement or sooner payment"

 

Defence

 

The Defendant contends that the particulars of the claim are vague and generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made.

 

1. It is admitted that the Defendant once had banking facilities with the original creditor HSBC Bank plc. It is denied that I am indebted for the alleged balance claimed.

 

2. Paragraph 2 is denied. I am not aware or ever receiving any Notice of Assignment pursuant to the Law of Property Act 1925. It is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer credit Act 1974. The Claimant has yet to provide a copy of the Notice of Assignment its claim relies upon.

 

3. Paragraph 3 is denied. To my knowledge HSBC has never served me a notice pursuant to 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974

 

Any alleged amount claimed could only consist substantially of default penalties/charges levied on the account for alleged late, rejected or over limit payments.

The court will be aware that these charge types and the recoverability thereof have been judicially declared to be susceptible to assessments of fairness under the Unfair terms in Consumer Contracts Regulations 1999 The Office of Fair Trading v Abbey National PLC and others (2009). I will contend at trial that such charges are unfair in their entirety.

 

4. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.

The claimant is also put to strict proof to:-.

 

(a) Provide a copy agreement/overdraft facility arrangement along with the Terms and conditions at inception that this claim is based on.

(b) Provide a copy of the Notice served under 76(1) and 98(1) of the CCA1974 Demand /Recall Notice and Notice of Assignment.

© Provide a breakdown of all excessive charging/fees and show how the Claimant has reached the amount claimed.

(d) Show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim.

(e) Show how they have complied with sections III & IV of Practice Direction - Pre-action Conduct.

 

5. On receipt of this claim I requested documentation by way of a CPR 31.14 request dated 26 April 2018 namely the Overdraft Agreement, Terms and Conditions relevant at the time of inception for the agreed overdraft and Termination Demand Notice inferred by the Claimant's Particulars of Claim.

 

The Claimant has failed to respond or comply with this request.

 

By reason of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.

Edited by dx100uk
edited

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Have you received prior notice of a claim being issued pursuant to paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) ?

 

Not to my knowledge

 

Insert the following as your point 1...and renumber

 

1. The Claimant has not complied with paragraph 3 of the PAPDC (Pre Action Protocol) Failed to serve a letter of claim pre claim pursuant to PAPDC changes of the 1st October 2017.It is respectfully requested that the court take this into consideration pursuant to 7.1 PAPDC.

 

The rest is fine.

 

 

Andy


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Final stupid question before I submit - which do I tick

 

I am the Defendant - I believe that the facts stated in this form are true or

I am duly authorised by the defendant to sign this statement - the defendant believes that the facts stated in this form are true

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He's had acknowledgement from the Court giving the claimant 28 days otherwise the claim will be stayed

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A large file of paperwork has been set to his old address from Intrum.

 

No idea what's in it as his old address is 1.5 hours away from the current one.

 

Rather annoyed to say the least as it is his parents house and they are now very concerned about it (the packet had split partly open on arrival).

 

Surely the solicitor should have requested to be sent to the new address (which they have written to themselves)?

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Bit naughty that, as they have the correct address.


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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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So in the package he has received :

 

Notice of Assignment

Introductory Letter (from 1st Credit)

Change of Legal Representative (from Moon Beever to Intrum)

280 pages of statements

HSBC Advance Bank Account Terms and Conditions (they state that as this is a current account, there is no signed agreement available)

A facility letter

 

The date on the footer of the printed documents is 11/17/2016

 

He has also received a letter from Northampton CCBC that the case has been transferred to the County Court local to us as the CCBC Solicitor is No Longer Acting

 

They have also sent copies of the Demand and Final Demand from them for payment and again reiterated that "as this is a current account and was opened prior to 1st February 2011, there are no original Terms and Conditions"

 

Then he received a letter "Without Prejudice Save As To Costs" informing him that they intend to proceed with this matter and setting out what each party will receive in the way of the questionnaire, notice of allocation and direction, etc. They state "To date we have disclosed all available documentation to which which includes the statements of account/payment history; notice of assignment; the terms and conditions on default; the pre-Final Demand letter and the Final Demand. We intent to proceed to trial and obtain judgement and will seek costs; and interest against you, which to date is as follows £xxxxx (they break down the costs). Notwithstanding the above we remain of the view that this claim is capable of being settled and we are prepared to make a settlement offer. For the avoidance of doubt any previous offers are revoked."

 

They will accept £2,100 in full and final settlement, including interest, costs

or £2,800 by instalments.

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So if its been transferred from Northampton to your local CC then the claimant has informed them they wish to proceed.The above is the claimants offer of settlement and your opportunity to agree a settlement before its allocated.

 

The claimants will have to pay a further hearing fee hence the above offer.

 

Do you feel that what they have provided is sufficient to attain judgment in court ?

 

Would you possibly consider accepting their offer to avoid further costs and judgment ?

 

The figures they propose are a some what confusing.......

 

From their particulars......

 

Debt in the sun of £2664 assigned on 23/3/2016

On 19/05/2015 the account defaulted with an outstanding amount of £2,302.

 

AND THE CLAIMANT CLAIMS

1. The sum of £2,302

 

Total amount of claim £2,850

 

They will accept £2,100 in full and final settlement, including interest, costs

or £2,800 by installments.

 

 

Andy


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The amount on the original claim form was £2302.93 + interest of £361.50 from 5/4/2016 + £150 court fee + £50 legal representative fee = £2849.43

The amount they are claiming now is £2302.93 + interest of £400 + £105 Issue fee + £80 solicitor fee = £2887.93

 

I have no idea if this is defendable or not! Obviously my partner is stressing so much about this. I have no idea how we would raise that sort of money

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Weve no lost an OD case yet


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Well they would only get interest if the court award judgment..so a starting negotiable figure would be £2302.93 + £150 court fee + £50 legal representative fee.= £2502.29

 

Section 69 interest is at the discretion of the court....as is 8%..it may be half....so lets disregard the £361.50.

 

Whether to try to negotiate a settlement is subject to how important it is you dont lose or attain a CCJ ?

 

If its irrelevant and your CRAs are already shot...you continue and take your chance in court and see what the court states.If you lose you can always make application to vary it to monthly affordable payment albeit with a CCJ on your file for 6 years.

 

If its vital you dodge the CCJ then settlement is the only option but I would be starting at a figure of £2502.29 paid monthly....each party to bear their own costs.

 

I see no justification as to why a FFS should be lower than a monthly payment option...but you do have to start with the correct initial figure which as stated is £2502.29.


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He hasn't got the best credit history but has no CCJ's and most of the defaults drop off in 3/4 years.

 

If he negotiates a FFS and they agree, will this pave the way for them pursuing the CC debt with them? The CC debt chasing seems to have dropped since we asked them to rpvide documentation

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Please dont capitulate!

All you do is fund their fleecing of 10,000 just like you.


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