Help Please - Damaged Goods received from WoodFloor Warehouse

[Carl Holland]

Hi All,

 

 

I ordered 5 boxes of laminate flooring and a zigzag bar online, which were delivered by courier to my fathers address, as I work full time.

Once I had paid for the items (via PayPal), I received an email with the delivery date and an invoice stating :-

 

 

"It is very important to check your order for signs of damage before accepting your delivery. If you spot any damage or missing items, please accept the delivery and mark this on the delivery docket detailing what is damaged or missing and how many packs are missing or damaged. We can then replace these items quickly. Regrettably, we are only able to replace any damaged items that have been signed for as damaged.”

 

“By signing for any delivered goods you are also confirming that you have received those goods in acceptable condition. Woodfloor Warehouse ltd can not accept responsibility for any goods damaged in transit that the customer has signed for unless signed as damaged.”

 

I therefore asked my father to check the goods when they were delivered, and refuse to sign for them if any were damaged.

The laminate flooring was delivered by UPS and each individual box was covered in flimsy foam underlay and taped with sellotape, as was the zigzag bar.

My father checked each box and saw no damage to the covering, therefore assumed the laminate was fine, and signed that all was ok.

When I got the flooring home and opened the boxes, I discovered that 3 of the 5 were severely damaged, and the zigzag bar crushed beyond use, and completely unusable.

I have emailed the company requesting replacement of the 3 boxes and the zigzag bar.

They told me to fill in a claim and send photos, which I did.

The company then replied stating that because they were signed for, there is nothing they can do, but as a good gesture will would send 3 more boxes and zigzag bar, and charge at cost price if I paid again.

 

 

I stated that the items were checked and no visible damage was found and the flimsy outer packaging was undamaged, therefore the goods must have been damaged prior to wrapping and delivery.

They stated this was not possible, staff would lose their jobs, and they must have been damaged during delivery, and they would not replace or refund as they were not signed for as damaged.

 

 

By stating the above, I feel like they have relinquished all responsibility for any damaged items they send out, and placed it either onto the delivery company or the customer.

 

 

If I had unwrapped and signed as damaged upon delivery, the company would blame the courier and get their money back.

As my father didn't unwrap all 5 boxes and inspect each of the 50 boards individually on delivery, the blame then falls on the customer.

 

 

Either way they still get money for damaged goods.

In my opinion, they have wrapped the already damaged flooring in flimsy covering, therefore hiding the damage from the courier and the customer, sent them out, and then covered themselves with the above statement.

 

 

Does anyone know if they have legally covered themselves with the above (as it is apparently in their terms & conditions also), or do I have any rights for a refund/replacements ?

Thanks in advance.

[martin2006]

No they are trying to shirk responsibility

 

See the following:

 

Consumer rights act 2015

 

Consumer Contracts (Information, Cancellation and Additional Charges) Regulations 2013

These replaced the Distance Selling Regulations in June 2013

 

All you will need to know is in these 2 pieces of legislation

[silverfox1961]

Hi and welcome to CAG.

This company are trying to fleece you so why not name them.

 

Under the Distance Selling Regulations, you are covered and since the Consumer Rights Act came into force last year, you have an absolute right to reject the goods and get all of your money back.

Please name them and also have a look at their terms and conditions as we will once we have the name

[silverfox1961]

Bugger! Martin beat me to it

[martin2006]

They call me Fast Fingered Freddie

[silverfox1961]

As a member of the site team, I now know who they are. This comment from their terms and conditions;

 

The buyer must inspect all goods for damage before accepting delivery. We will accept no responsibility for goods damaged during transit if the customer has signed for them. Should a delivery arrive to you damaged in any way it must be signed as “damaged” in order for us to send a replacement or issue compensation.

If the items are not signed as damaged we will accept no liability for any damages.

The buyer may also refuse to accept a damaged delivery. Please note, should a delivery be returned to us because the customer has refused to accept it, and there is no evidence of damage, it will be considered a “cancellation” and treated as such.

Should the buyer wish to accept a damaged delivery , they must still sign for it as “damaged“ with the delivery courier in order for us to process any claim for compensation on their behalf.

 

is unlawful as they are trying to deny you your rights. I have removed the name for now until the OP decides whether or not to name them

[silverfox1961]

The OP has OK'd me to name them. They are woodfloorwarehouse.co.uk.

 

The OP didn't open the packs up for 15 days as they were not needed. As it is, Laminate flooring needs to be left at room temperature for a few days to acclimatise to the room heat. That does not detract from the fact that the goods were damaged. It would have been easier if the packs had been opened earlier but 20/20 hindsight didn't help here.

 

The Consumer Rights Regulations give the customer up to 30 days to return the goods for a full refund for any reason and if they are faulty, the seller is responsible for the return costs.

 

woodfloor warehouse are walking all over the OPs rights. They have also said to the OP that if he sues them, they will counterclaim. For what? They are in breach. They must replace the damaged goods or offer a full refund. Again, they are trying to scare the OP with the counterclaim bluff.

[silverfox1961]

Thread title changed to reflect the new information.

[Carl Holland]

After a few emails regarding what they described as 'my responsibility to check the goods prior to signing', they say I didn't do it properly, I said there was no damage to the outer packaging, therefore I had checked it properly. I asked them for either a replacement of 3 boxes and the zigzag bar or a refund, they still refused, so after taking advice via this thread, I said they left me no choice but to take legal action to recover my costs. I received the following in reply:-

 

 

Dear Mr Holland

 

We did not and would never send you damaged goods. Everything is checked and wrapped by hand in our warehouse. We have informed you of your responsibility to check the goods before signing for them numerous times and this was not carried out until 15 days after the goods were signed for. We can no longer claim from the insurance company for you because you have neglected your responsibility. If the goods were checked properly and signed as damaged we would have ben able to claim and replace the damaged items for you.

 

Unfortunately because the goods have been in your possession for such a long time before reporting any damages to us, it will not be possible to prove that the goods were not damaged while in your possession and legal proceeding would very likely amount to nothing but wasted time and money for everyone concerned. Should legal action be taken against Wood Floor Warehouse we would have no choice but to counter claim against you our full the costs in defending this.

 

I am genuinely sorry that your goods were damaged, but you have failed to check the goods correctly until 2 weeks after delivery.

 

 

We are still willing to supply 3 new boxes at cost price to you as a good will gesture but we cannot do any more than this in this case.

 

Kind Regards

 

Darren Burns

Technical Director

After attempting to blame the courier service initially, he now attempts to shift the blame to me, simply because I didn't open the outer packaging for 15 days (which I already stated were left in the packaging until I was ready to lay them, for their own protection !)

Some pictures attached of the damaged items.

[Carl Holland]

I responded to his previous email in great detail in an attempt to resolve this amicably by simply sending replacements for the damages items, and to explain how the goods were checked and the outer packaging was not damaged, which is why they were signed for at delivery as ok. I also explained that in my opinion, as there was no damage to the outer foam packaging, the damage to the laminate and zigzag rod must have occurred prior to packaging and shipping. He flatly refused to accept this was even a possibility.

He then replies with the following, saying he can see external damage to the packaging after examining my pictures:-

 

 

Dear Mr Holland

 

We do not believe that these goods could have been damaged so extensively without some form of external damage to the packaging. When i inspect the pictures i can see packaging damage. The goods were in your care for 15 days without notifying us of any damages so we are unable to help any further.

 

Kind Regards

 

Darren Burns

Technical Director

My final response was:-

Dear Mr Burns,

 

 

Yes, I agree, these goods could not have been damaged so extensively without some form of damage to the packaging, UNLESS they were already damaged prior to packing, which is what I've been stating all along.

 

 

And as stated, many times, there was NO damage to the packaging upon delivery, otherwise they would NOT have been accepted upon delivery, as per your instructions.

 

 

I have already explained why they remained unwrapped for 15 days, the room was being cleaned, carpet removed, skirting removed and painted prior to laying the flooring, and they were left in the packaging for protection.

 

 

Of course you can see packaging damage on the pictures, this was done my myself when I opened the packaging to lay the boards, how else am I supposed to get the laminate boards out without removing the packaging, that's when I discovered the damage.

 

 

Unfortunately, as it appears you are not prepared to accept any responsibility for the damage or to resolve this amicably by replacing the damaged goods, and having been advised of my rights under Consumer Rights Act 2015, you leave me no choice but to take further legal action.

 

 

Regards,

Carl Holland

 

[silverfox1961]

Your key rights are:

14 days to change your mind and get a refund

30 days to reject the goods of they are faulty.

 

The company are trying to ride over your basic rights. No courier company will want to stay whilst every packet is opened and checked. They want a signature.

 

It doesn't matter what contract the company have with the courier. Your contract is with the company, not the courier.

 

While I respect any company that wants to cut its losses, this should have no impact on you.

 

I suggest that you now write an email formally rejecting the goods as not fit for purpose due to damage and you require the company to collect the laminate at their cost and fully refund you.

 

The terms and conditions on the website do not override the law and they should know it. Any counterclaim (??) would fail.

[Carl Holland]

Many Thanks for the advice.

I'll get in contact with them to ask them to collect and refund, and update you of any response.

Should they still refuse, do you have any advice on further action ? Small claims court ?

I'm happy to keep the 2 boxes that were not damaged as I've cut/used them when I started to lay the floor (I opened and laid the 2 good boxes before opening the last 3 which were the damaged ones !!), and only want a refund for the 3 damaged boxes and the zigzag bar, so I'm trying to be fair with them.

Also, would it be okay/advisable to point them in the direction of this website to let them know where I am receiving my advice, or better not to ?

[silverfox1961]

Slight confession on my part. They already know

 

In very rare occasions, I take it upon myself to contact companies and when I saw that the majority of reviews were good, I would hope they would join and apply to have the right of reply.

[Carl Holland]

No problem.

Have they chosen to reply ?

[silverfox1961]

No problem.

Have they chosen to reply ?

Not as yet but I will be keeping an eye out for them

[Carl Holland]

Ok, thanks, I'll now put in the email to formally reject the goods.

[Carl Holland]

I have just emailed them formally requesting they collect at their cost, and provide a refund of the damaged items:-

 

 

Dear Mr Burns,

 

 

Having been in contact with the Consumer Action Group regarding my Consumer rights, I have been advised to formally reject the goods I ordered as not fit for purpose due to the damage and request you to collect the damaged items (3 boxes of laminate and zigzag bar as detailed below), at your cost, and for you to fully refund the cost of these items.

 

 

I believe the Consumer Action Group have been in contact with your company, and invited you to join the group and apply to have the right of reply.

 

 

According to the Group, under the Consumer Rights Act 2015 I have 30 days to reject the goods as they were received in faulty condition which I am now formally invoking, and the terms and conditions on your website do not override this law, of which the Group state you should already be aware.

 

 

The cost of these damaged products, for which I request a refund is:-

3 packs of Garrison Oak laminate flooring SKU code MF4565 = £44.19

1 Gold Zig-Zag bar 900mm SKU code TCM13 = £5.13

Shipping Charges = £27.45

Sub-total = £76.82

VAT @ 20% = £15.36

Total refund requested = £92.18

 

 

Please let me know when you wish to arrange collection of these damaged goods.

 

 

Regards,

Carl Holland.

[dbinit]

I am responding as a representative for Wood Floor Warehouse ltd to explain our stance on this particular claim.

 

We take each and every claim seriously as customer satisfaction is of the upmost importance to us. We are constantly evolving our business to learn and improve for our customers. I feel that this shows in our online feedback of which 99.5% is positive via ebay and 94% positive on Komi. These are among 2 of the best scores in our industry.

 

We want to make sure every customer is happy with our service and do everything we can within reason to ensure that this is the case. One of the most difficult things for any online retailer is that Consumer rights ask for "reasonable time to inspect goods", where as almost every couriers terms and conditions will state that once goods are signed for, there is then no longer a claim with them for damages. When writing our own terms and conditions and sending our delivery emails to customers , we state that we require the goods to be checked immediately upon delivery. We believe that this is adequate for 99% our deliveries which are either sent on a pallet inside a clear wrap so any damages will be easily identifiable, or wrapped in multiple layers of packaging foam, which will damage externally, before the internal contents are at risk of become damaged. However we know that this is not always the case every time so in addition we then treat each case individually upon on its own merit even if our own terms and conditions and delivery instructions are not satisfied.

 

The law makes a specific reference to inspecting your goods for damages within reasonable time although they do not clarify how long this reasonable time is. It should not be confused with 30 days for faulty goods, or 30 days on goods not fit for purpose. Damages are not classed as faulty goods nor are they classed as goods not fit for purpose. Damages are simply that, goods which have been damaged and the law specifically asks that a customer does inspect for them as do our sales terms highlighted to every customer. The simple reason for this is once the goods are in the customers possession, they are still at risk of damage. the Consumer Right Act states that once a customer takes possession, the goods are now under their own care and risk. If this was not the case, then what way would there be to stop someone claiming for a damaged TV that fell when they attempted to hang it on the wall 2 days after delivery?

 

We try to be fair to everyone and although we do not state it on our website, even when goods are not signed as damaged, we will still individually assess a case and if we feel that the customer is genuine and the damages were reported to us in a reasonable time then we will usually cover the cost of the claim even at our own expense despite having no claim with the courier company. We do not state this on our website as it is at our own discretion and each case is different. We also do not want to deter customers from checking their goods thoroughly upon delivery as if they fail to do this , then we will not have a claim for even the most obvious of courier damages when a customer decides to delay checking it to a later date because our terms and conditions allowed it.

 

In this particular case the packaging tears around where the damaged corners have occurred in both images are jagged and also in line with the damaged corner which is exactly what we would expect to see with impact damage. The rest of the torn packaging is not jagged, which is what we would expect to see when ripping the packaging open by hand or a blade. This is evident in pictures 4 and 5. In the first picture which is again impact damage which is so severe that we do not believe that the product could have been damaged internally this badly without any external packaging damage.

 

Additionally, we have also looked at the time frame in which it has taken to report the damages to us. In this case it took Mr Holland 15 days to report any damages to us, despite being asked to check the goods immediately. We think that 15 days is too long to be considered a reasonable time if your are initially asked to inspect goods immediately. And of course we now have no way to know that Mr Holland or His father who received the goods did not cause the impact damage after delivery.

 

To the best of my knowledge, our conditions are in full compliance with UK consumer rights and are made clear to our customers before purchase and again before dispatch of the goods. If for any reason Mr Holland thought he would not be able to check the goods on delivery, he should have raised this with us before ordering as it is not something that we bury in terms and conditions, but something that we highlight. A customer does have certain responsibilities and I feel that they have been ignored in this particular case.

 

With regards to the statement from Mr Holland that the goods were sent out damaged on purpose, this is something that we completely refute due to the following reasons:

 

• As a business that aims for excellent customer feedback, intentionally sending damaged goods would severely impact upon this
  
• We have identified impact damage in the pictures
  
• Any damaged boxes found within our warehouse are either cut up for sampling, (saving us opening perfect boxes) or disposed of in an incinerator which heats our warehousing. We simply have no need to send these boxes out.
  
• Our warehouse staff also receive a bonus each week provided damages are kept to a minimum level. This is to encourage them to pack everything well. If they packaged up already damaged goods this could potentially affect their performance bonus.
  

 

 

I will be communicating with Mr Holland outside of this forum in an effort to try to resolve things for him amicably. It is our intention to do our very best for every customer who has chosen us and I hope that we can come to an agreement with him.

[martin2006]

None of which detracts from the consumers right to reject the goods within 30 days gor ANY reason, i refer to the Consumer Rights Act 2015 s22(2) and s22(3)

See below

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2015/15/section/22/enacted

[dbinit]

Actually this is incorrect. You cannot return a damaged item. Goods can only be returned in good condition unless a fault has only developed or become apparent after use.

 

The issue is about where the goods became damaged because in this case the goods were fit for purpose and not faulty when they left the store. They were damaged somewhere between leaving the store and the 15 days they were in Mr Hollands possession, who accepted the Liability of the goods when they were signed for. This is detailed under the transfer of risk in the CRA.

 

The goods remain at the trader’s risk until they come into the physical possession of—

(a)

the consumer, or

(b)

a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods.

 

Also due to the non conformity to our terms by the customer, we can now not determine when the goods became damaged and who is therefore responsible for the damage. C.R.A also make reference to non conformity being another reason that a refund can be refused.

 

We have offered Mr Holland a further gesture in an effort to just close the matter.

[silverfox1961]

dbinit, please check your messages.

[silverfox1961]

Woodfloor Warehouse are now a permitted company to post and their opinions are now visible to all.

 

Carl Holland, could you please update us on how things are progressing.

[silverfox1961]

Actually this is incorrect. You cannot return a damaged item. Goods can only be returned in good condition unless a fault has only developed or become apparent after use.

 

The issue is about where the goods became damaged because in this case the goods were fit for purpose and not faulty when they left the store. They were damaged somewhere between leaving the store and the 15 days they were in Mr Hollands possession, who accepted the Liability of the goods when they were signed for. This is detailed under the transfer of risk in the CRA.

 

The goods remain at the trader’s risk until they come into the physical possession of—

(a)

the consumer, or

(b)

a person identified by the consumer to take possession of the goods.

 

Also due to the non conformity to our terms by the customer, we can now not determine when the goods became damaged and who is therefore responsible for the damage. C.R.A also make reference to non conformity being another reason that a refund can be refused.

 

We have offered Mr Holland a further gesture in an effort to just close the matter.

 

If these items were damaged by Mr Holland or his father, why did Mr Holland use two packs of laminate before opening the others. If he knew the laminate was damaged, he would not have laid the flooring at all.

 

Let us think of the packages; strange how it was the bottom three packages. I think the three packages were at the top of a pile and fell over but when delivered one package at a time, these three would end up on the bottom. Does that sound logical?

 

I have had parcels delivered that looked fine on the outside but on opening, found the goods inside damaged. I will go and look at the pictures again and give my opinion of them.

[silverfox1961]

Having just looked at the pictures, it seems that all the packages were wrapped in a foam outer. Foam is a natural absorber of damage and will not show too well if there is any damage.

 

The first image would indicate to me that something with an edge has fallen on to these two packs or the packs have fallen on to an edge. This sort of damage would not always show upon inspection of the outer packaging.

The zigzag bar could easily have been bent when the other packages fell or were hit.

In the third image, it looks to me that something has hit the package and image 4 indicates that the package has been dropped. I say again that packages wrapped in foam will not always show up damage on first inspection.

A better way would be to attach shockwatch stickers to each package. Yes it means additional cost but it would indicate to a customer that something has happened.

[Carl Holland]

Hi,

Progress so far. I emailed this morning stating what you informed me regarding removal of the thread as follows:-

 

 

Dear Mr Burns,

 

I have contacted the site team at CAG informing them that I would be prepared to accept your offer (as that is all I requested in my original email to you), providing you can arrange for delivery of the replacement items to be made on a Thursday, to a different address in Chesterfield.

 

Unfortunately, I have been informed by CAG that they do not remove threads. Once an agreement has been reached, the thread is updated with the result of the agreement.

 

Please feel free to contact site team member silverfox1961 at CAG, as your email response to the forum last night has been hidden due to the fact you failed to register with them as a company (which I have been informed is required in the forum rules).

 

I await your response.

 

Regards,

Carl Holland.

 

 

Mr Burns has responded with the following email:-

 

 

Hi Carl

 

This is unfortunate. Even if we rectify the situation for you , this thread remains. This can only aggravate the situation because if we are publically seen to bend to this pressure and this fact is then published, then anyone else who has an issue even if they are at faulty will potentially take the same route and this could potentially do our business serious harm.

 

I have requested to be allowed to post on the forum , but they have not yet granted this yet, despite someone from the forum sending me an email asking if we would like to engage and our registration email used being of the same domain. I am not sure what they need to verify still.

 

Unfortunately for you , the law states that once the goods are in your possession , then they are your responsibility and i simply cannot change that fact. There is simply no way for anyone to prove that the goods were not damaged while in your possession, where it could have been proved that they were not if the goods had have been checked correctly upon, or even straight after, delivery. The law also makes a specific reference to “non conformity” by the consumer of which we feel that this is also a case of. We asked that the goods are examined upon delivery, where it was 15 days before they were in fact examined.

 

The CAG are incorrectly telling you that you can return goods up to 30 days for any reason.This would not be the case if they are damaged. No shop has to accept the return of damaged goods unless it can be proved that they were delivered damaged, which of course we now cannot do because they were in your possession for 15 days before reporting it to us.

 

 

We are having a meeting about this later today and i will let you know the outcome.

 

Kind Regards

 

Darren Burns

Technical Director