Company Wrongly Paying an Individual

[steampowered]

Your son knows the money does not belong to him, so spending it would be theft.

 

People have been convicted of theft for spending money paid into their account by mistake. Here are some examples: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6966683.stm and http://fox13now.com/2015/03/10/teen-convicted-of-spending-30000-bank-put-in-his-account-by-mistake/.

 

I think the best advice would be to email back this person stating this money has been received and asking what to do with it. If your son doesn't want to do that, he should at least leave the money in a separate high interest savings account, so that he is not tempted to spend it and can give it back if required.

 

I think it is unrealistic to believe the money has been written off because of potential bad publicity. This is not a news story. Companies pay money into the wrong bank account by mistake all the time.

 

Oh and as for limitations- there are no limitations if fraud is concerned

The statute of limitations for fraud is 6 years from when the fraud was discovered or could have been discovered with reasonable diligence. See http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/58/section/32.

[CaptainMannering]

Your son knows the money does not belong to him, so spending it would be theft.

 

People have been convicted of theft for spending money paid into their account by mistake. Here are some examples: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/6966683.stm and http://fox13now.com/2015/03/10/teen-convicted-of-spending-30000-bank-put-in-his-account-by-mistake/.

 

I think the best advice would be to email back this person stating this money has been received and asking what to do with it. If your son doesn't want to do that, he should at least leave the money in a separate high interest savings account, so that he is not tempted to spend it and can give it back if required.

 

I think it is unrealistic to believe the money has been written off because of potential bad publicity. This is not a news story. Companies pay money into the wrong bank account by mistake all the time.

 

 

The statute of limitations for fraud is 6 years from when the fraud was discovered or could have been discovered with reasonable diligence. See http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/58/section/32.

 

Hi steam, I can assure you he has no intention of spending it the sum has been building up now for 14 months and he hasn't spent a penny. He has just given me the email address for the company and it is from a @yahoo.com email address which I find strange for a company?

[steampowered]

Hi steam, I can assure you he has no intention of spending it the sum has been building up now for 14 months and he hasn't spent a penny. He has just given me the email address for the company and it is from a @yahoo.com email address which I find strange for a company?

I agree. I could understand it for a small business, but it is a bit strange for a large national lettings agency to be using a @yahoo.com address.

 

It is very strange that noone has claimed the money for 16 months. I suppose he could leave it gathering interest until someone claims it !

[Mr.P]

I agree. I could understand it for a small business, but it is a bit strange for a large national lettings agency to be using a @yahoo.com address.

 

It would be worth checking to see if the company has a web site (I'd be surprised if they didn't), and cross checking the email address. If the "official" contact address isn't a yahoo one, it might suggest that there are things going on which management know nothing of.

[Ganymede]

 

I don't believe on the face of what he's telling me he has done anything legally wrong, I believe it is down to the company failing to carry out security checks. Can anyone help please

 

 

 

Seriously?!

[woad]

The use of a .yahoo email address suggest something else; your son might have been targeted as a "mule". It is a simple [problem] in which monies obtained from a target are deposited with a third -innocent and unwitting - individual. This person is fed a story that (s)he will be handling monies on bahlf of another, and will receive a commission/cut for doing so.

 

And quite often that's the case, until ActionFraud/Police come knocking.

 

But as everyone else has said, it is imperative that your son does not touch a penny, does NOT delete any emails, and tries to return the funds ASAP.

[BazzaS]

The use of a .yahoo email address suggest something else; your son might have been targeted as a "mule". It is a simple [problem] in which monies obtained from a target are deposited with a third -innocent and unwitting - individual. This person is fed a story that (s)he will be handling monies on bahlf of another, and will receive a commission/cut for doing so.

 

And quite often that's the case, until ActionFraud/Police come knocking.

 

But as everyone else has said, it is imperative that your son does not touch a penny, does NOT delete any emails, and tries to return the funds ASAP.

 

Possibly a money mule s*c*a*m, but its a pretty rubbish mule handler who leaves the funds for 13 months .......

[Ganymede]

I think people are reaching with their theories here.

[renegadeimp]

Just contact the bank and the email. The bank will lock all access to the money

[CaptainMannering]

Just contact the bank and the email. The bank will lock all access to the money

 

That is definitely his next course of action. The other thing that has just occurred to me is when my son replied the emails would have come through from his name rather than that of the possible intended. So although the company sent it to an email address the reply would have come back from "John Smith" with the possible intended being Jack Smith?

[hightail]

Why has he let it carry on so long?

[renegadeimp]

Why has he let it carry on so long?

As already stated it seems he knows the money is there for whatever reason. Normally a business would seek to retriece it in its financial audits. However I don't think the son is being honest here and there's something much more suspicious going on and the son knows it. Which is why the parent and us are only getting part of the story.

[fletch70]

 

 

The statute of limitations for fraud is 6 years from when the fraud was discovered or could have been discovered with reasonable diligence. See http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1980/58/section/32.

 

Thanks

I stand corrected, as usual others can explain things so much better than me

 

The question I guess that may be relevant is , when was the fraud discovered? I suppose you could argue it was when the money stopped being paid into the account although it is possible that it could be later than that - that discussion is for another time and place and by people far more qualified than most of us on here

[fletch70]

I think people are reaching with their theories here.

 

I think people are just putting their viewpoint although some , on the facts given do seem more appropriate and I am sure that some are given with personal experience behind them

i.e It doesn't matter how lax a companies security is , if it is abused and a gain made from it, that can be fraud.

 

I have only today seen that the email account was a yahoo one, that does seem odd for a national lettings agency although without researching them all impossible to say , certainly in the old days smaller companies made use of Yahoo or various ISP email addresses.

 

Certainly a good idea to cross check the letting agents website

[hightail]

However I don't think the son is being honest here and there's something much more suspicious going on and the son knows it.

It doesn't seem to be the money going in which has worried the son. He appears to have turned to the parent because the payments stopped. That is strange.

[BazzaS]

i.e It doesn't matter how lax a companies security is , if it is abused and a gain made from it, that can be fraud.

 

 

It doesn't even require a gain to be made for fraud.

For fraud by false representation (along with the other elements laid out in statute, as I previously posted), there doesn't have to be a gain by the fraudster, or even a loss by the defrauded, just the risk of loss.

 

So, a false representation with dishonest intent that is made electronically can cause the offence to have been committed as the representation is made, at that point in time, even if later a security system (or human intervention) prevents the fraud succeeding.

 

For example, using a "cloned card" (to try to make a fraudulent payment) makes out the offence even if the payment processor stops the payment going through. The fact it didn't succeed is no defence.

[fletch70]

It doesn't even require a gain to be made for fraud.

For fraud by false representation (along with the other elements laid out in statute, as I previously posted), there doesn't have to be a gain by the fraudster, or even a loss by the defrauded, just the risk of loss.

 

So, a false representation with dishonest intent that is made electronically can cause the offence to have been committed as the representation is made, at that point in time, even if later a security system (or human intervention) prevents the fraud succeeding.

 

For example, using a "cloned card" (to try to make a fraudulent payment) makes out the offence even if the payment processor stops the payment going through. The fact it didn't succeed is no defence.

 

I am not disputing that although it is ironic that the sentencing guidelines are based on the sum involved with the starting point for the lowest guidelines based on 2.5K

 

The courts really are very much tied these days by sentencing guidelines which is probably a good thing as it stops the luck of the draw or 'hanging' judges handing out unreasonably hard sentences

 

 

By the way, I am not suggesting that 14 months rent would even in the worst case scenario lead to imprisonment

 

As for getting worried now the payments have stopped, I think I can understand that- once they have stopped the prospect of difficult questions suddenly raises its ugly head

[CaptainMannering]

Hi all, an update. I have successfully been in touch with the director of the company. Long and short they had realised the monies had gone to the non intended individual.

 

They have asked for our proposals for returning the money, they have requested that this is dealt with with mr personally as a they say that if the matter is dealt with through the police and prosecution then they are unlikely to get any compensation.

 

We have no issue returning the money, but what is stopping the company getting the monies back from my son then notifying the police? How could we reach an agreement on these terms?

Edited December 4, 2016 by honeybee13
Paras.

[BazzaS]

Hi all, an update. I have successfully been in touch with the director of the company. Long and short they had realised the monies had gone to the non intended individual.

 

They have asked for our proposals for returning the money, they have requested that this is dealt with with mr personally as a they say that if the matter is dealt with through the police and prosecution then they are unlikely to get any compensation.

 

We have no issue returning the money, but what is stopping the company getting the monies back from my son then notifying the police? How could we reach an agreement on these terms?

 

The civil and criminal matters are independent. They are wrong to say "if the matter is dealt with through the police and prosecution then they are unlikely to get any compensation",

They might not from the criminal case but could still take civil action.

 

A successful prosecution can only make it more likely they could get money back in a civil claim. At worst, they'd be no better off if the criminal case didn't yield them anything, but they can't be worse off!.

 

Be wary of proposing a "deal" that leads you to commit a further offence ; it could make it look like blackmail (if it is a demand for money) or perverting the course of justice (if you hinder the reporting of a crime) such as "if you don't promise to not tell the police, you aren't getting your money back".

[CaptainMannering]

The civil and criminal matters are independent. They are wrong to say "if the matter is dealt with through the police and prosecution then they are unlikely to get any compensation",

They might not from the criminal case but could still take civil action.

 

A successful prosecution can only make it more likely they could get money back in a civil claim. At worst, they'd be no better off if the criminal case didn't yield them anything, but they can't be worse off!.

 

Be wary of proposing a "deal" that leads you to commit a further offence ; it could make it look like blackmail (if it is a demand for money) or perverting the course of justice (if you hinder the reporting of a crime) such as "if you don't promise to not tell the police, you aren't getting your money back".

 

Thanks Bazza. What do you suggest I send in reply to their email?

[BazzaS]

Thanks Bazza. What do you suggest I send in reply to their email?

 

It depends! It is difficult to be sure until it is clearer what their e-mail says!

 

As for "They have asked for our proposals for returning the money", since he hasn't touched the money, return it, in one lump sum (including any interest earned!)

 

As for the criminal side of things

Either

a) don't mention the criminal side, sticking to the civil matter(s), or

b) agree with a statement THEY have already made (provided their statement hasn't been prompted by a suggestion you have made that could then lead to it all being misconstrued as blackmail / perverting the course of justice).

It is probably best not to mention the criminal side, but I can't be sure since I haven't seen their e-mail....... could you post it up (suitably redacted)?

[CaptainMannering]

My name is X and I am a Director of Company

 

It has been brought to my attention, company has been incorrectly paying you rent exceeding £sum since June 2015.

 

I have read with interest the email conversations you had with Z, an employee of company, back In May 2015. Seemingly she emailed you in error. Unfortunately she misspelt the intended email address and ended up with you. Consequently you found an opportunity to assume the identity of one of our landlords, who happens to share your surname and initial, to steal his rent payments.

 

You will appreciate you have dishonestly stolen monies from this company and we have now had to reimburse the real landlord furthermore we will be grateful to receive your proposals to repay the stolen monies.

 

In the event this matter Is not resolved we will be left with no alternative but to notify the police which could lead to a custodial sentence, given the evidence and sums involved. I anticipate it would be very easy for the police to trace you.

 

Our preference will be to resolve this matter with you directly because realistically if you are prosecuted we are unlikely to receive any compensation.

[BazzaS]

My name is X and I am a Director of Company

 

It has been brought to my attention, company has been incorrectly paying you rent exceeding £sum since June 2015.

 

I have read with interest the email conversations you had with Z, an employee of company, back In May 2015. Seemingly she emailed you in error. Unfortunately she misspelt the intended email address and ended up with you. Consequently you found an opportunity to assume the identity of one of our landlords, who happens to share your surname and initial, to steal his rent payments.

 

You will appreciate you have dishonestly stolen monies from this company and we have now had to reimburse the real landlord furthermore we will be grateful to receive your proposals to repay the stolen monies.

 

In the event this matter Is not resolved we will be left with no alternative but to notify the police which could lead to a custodial sentence, given the evidence and sums involved. I anticipate it would be very easy for the police to trace you.

 

Our preference will be to resolve this matter with you directly because realistically if you are prosecuted we are unlikely to receive any compensation.

 

"Given I never intended to keep the monies, none of the money has been spent or transferred from the account it was received into.

Thus I am able to immediately return the whole sum, including any interest earned, which amounts to £x total.

(Make the payment if they have given details, and it is the company's account, or ask for the details to use, again making sure it is the company's account).

 

I am glad that we have been able to resolve the matter directly, and trust that (as per your preference) this brings this matter to a close".

[CaptainMannering]

"Given I never intended to keep the monies, none of the money has been spent or transferred from the account it was received into.

Thus I am able to immediately return the whole sum, including any interest earned, which amounts to £x total.

(Make the payment if they have given details, and it is the company's account, or ask for the details to use, again making sure it is the company's account).

 

I am glad that we have been able to resolve the matter directly, and trust that (as per your preference) this brings this matter to a close".

 

Excellent sir thank you very much