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I've been with my employer for over 12 years and during that time have gone from being an engineer to senior engineer, "senior" in this case referring to length of service / experience. Last year, after previously working alone, I gained an office buddy - we both report to the same manager so although he is on a much lower grade than me, I am not his boss.

At the time he was hired, I pointed out to the company that I didn't seem to have a proper job description aside from my title, and HR promised to provide one. I'm still waiting. Since then there have been a couple of times where I've not been happy at assumptions made about my role. Mainly, the Health & Safety manager circulated a new H&S policy this year which outlines various responsibilities to named individuals - I am named in this document as a manager.

I pointed this out to the H&S manager, that I am not a manager, but if they were to offer me such a position (2 grades above my current pay), then I might consider it... of course they will be doing no such thing. I understand that someone needs to be responsible for H&S on a local basis, as there is only two of us in this office, but I'm really not happy that other people think it's OK to incorrectly assign job titles, and the assumptions that might follow..

Today I have been asked to complete "H&S training for managers", and again there is a document attached to the email which lists me as office manager. I am happy to take certain responsibilities at a local level, but unless they are going to promote me I don't want to be referred to in this manner. TBH I'd love the money but I have no aspirations to be a manager, it would be a complete change from my current role and something I have no training or experience for.

 

Just wondered if anyone else has been in a similar position..?

I hate Alliance + Leicester

BT: No longer a customer :)

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As above, I understand that someone needs to be responsible for H&S on a local basis - that's not what I'm asking. My point is that they should no more call me office manager than they should call me a director. It's not my job, and I don't like the implications of such assumptions.

I hate Alliance + Leicester

BT: No longer a customer :)

HSBC: £1222 refunded 28/5/06; Second claim of £737-24 refunded 9/11/06; PPI + interest on personal loan refunded 27/7/08

MBNA: £100 refunded on first claim of £112; £208 refunded on second claim for £108 24/9/07; PPI £256-28 refunded 8/4/08

NatWest: £1581-71 refunded 16/12/06; personal loan CCA agreement not provided

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There are 2 facets to H&S at work, the employers respionsibility and a general responsibility of everyone to each other. Your company has to fulfil certain responsibilities under law and one of the methods of doing so is to appoint someone to do that tas. that person must be qualified by education training or experience. As it is a genral duty it is not necessarily a job as such so you cant really say no becuase it will be covered by that general duty of care.

Now, most companies like H&S training for staff, it makes them look good when it comes to box ticking on govt forms and their insurers love it as well. Usually it is good for the employee, promotion, more interesting work, time away from desk to fulfil the new function with no chance of any backlash from fellow employees etc. Do they have to pay you more? no. Can they sack you for refusing? possibly.

if you havent show any real antipathy to this new role yet you should explore seeking an honorarium to compensate you for the extra responsibility etc. Waht would be a suitable amount? Well start at a sensible fraction of the pay scale difference between your current post and the one 2 grades higher. The reason you should go down this route rather than a pay rise is that any H&S role is not part of your job and may be taken away from you as an individaula and placed on someone else's shoulders. The fixed sum honorarium recognises this If you can explain this to your company they will most likely agree to it. £200-500 a year is the sort of figure most companies are happy to add to your pay. Not a fortune but it is a recognition of the additional responsibilities and may help your career development if you find you like the H&S aspect of the industry you are in, go on other courses and then take a new post in that field instead of being on the tools.

I did the NEBOSH general cert and a number of other courses a few years back, no promotion off the back of it but I got to talk to people who you wouldnt otherwise mingle with in a large organisation and by doing so influenced a lot of promotions for others and helped set up a new staff grading scheme which meant more money all round (just about).

Employers like it when you go on union H&S courses, they get the benefit and dont have to pay for them!

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As above, I understand that someone needs to be responsible for H&S on a local basis - that's not what I'm asking. My point is that they should no more call me office manager than they should call me a director. It's not my job, and I don't like the implications of such assumptions.

 

 

I agree and plus there is implied responsibility to H&S manager, which means a lot of things such as if something happens, you're responsible. If somebody injures themselves and investigation finds that H&S wasn't implemented, it would be your misconduct.You should have H&S L3 training. You pointed this out to the H&S manager, I assume verbally, but to cover yourself I would put it in writing, offer a meeting to discuss it. In this way, you'll have evidence that policies (if there are any) were not followed.

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As above, I understand that someone needs to be responsible for H&S on a local basis - that's not what I'm asking. My point is that they should no more call me office manager than they should call me a director. It's not my job, and I don't like the implications of such assumptions.

 

So are you objecting to the title or the responsibility?

 

We have loads of managers in our place who don't manage people but manage other things.

 

But I cannot see that they are trying to change your job title.

 

I'm just not understanding why you are upset. Do you expect them to send someone else out to do risk assessments etc at your office?

Never assume anyone on the internet is who they say they are. Only rely on advice from insured professionals you have paid for!

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So are you objecting to the title or the responsibility?

 

We have loads of managers in our place who don't manage people but manage other things.

 

But I cannot see that they are trying to change your job title.

 

I'm just not understanding why you are upset. Do you expect them to send someone else out to do risk assessments etc at your office?

 

OP: in the same vein as Emmzzi's post:

 

Ask them not to refer to you as the H&S manager.

Ask them not to refer to you as a manager.

However, you need to do this and be seen in a positive light, too, so you need to offer a viable alternative.

 

Would you be happy to be referred to as the "H&S lead" for your office?

 

Could you lead the 2 of you there on H&S issues, without being a manager? Your colleague could come to you with any H&S issues and you could point them in the right direction : as you probably do anyway (for H&S and non-H&S issues) as the senior!.

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They assign these h&s responsibilities to existing members of staff without paying them any extra.

It happens everywhere.

They did the same thing to my wife because she was the most senior employee.

Like you she objected but they kind of forced her and sent her to the relevant course.

On first h&s inspection my wife found serious breaches of fire regulations (fire extinguishers out of date by 2 years, escape doors locked with chain and padlock with key missing, etc.)

She reported these findings immediately and marked them as urgent.

A week later they hadn't even replied to her email.

She sent another one explaining that she was going to pass the failed list to hse and refuse to work on h&s ground.

She received an email saying that with immediate effect she was not the h&s manager anymore.

Sweet.

2 years later no changes have been implemented.

She works next to a working escape door, so this doesn't affect her, but there's an entire floor that would have no escape route during a fire.

At the time, when she contacted the fire brigades for advice, they attended and put stickers over the failed equipment.

This was followed by a letter, but then nothing was done.

She sent an email to HO explaining that she had reported the faults and basically her responsibilities were done and dusted with.

Maybe if you dot the i's and cross the t's they'll appoint someone else.

There are contraventions in every building.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Thanks all for the replies. I may not have explained completely clearly (the H&S situation is a bit of a red herring); what I am objecting to specifically is being referred to by a job title which, although it exists in some of our other locations, does not exist in our tiny site.

 

I have again requested that they do not refer to me as manager/supervisor/team leader, all of which were used in the H&S policy and all of which are specific positions in the company above my pay grade. I have pointed out that I am not aware of the job description for such a position (hell, I don't seem to have a formal description for my current role!), and this makes me wary of being seen as responsible (in some eyes) for things that I have not received training/briefing/pay for.

 

Pay aside (it would be nice!), if the creation of such a position were being considered there is no guarantee that I would consider applying, or that the company would consider me suitable!

Edited by honeybee13
Paras.

I hate Alliance + Leicester

BT: No longer a customer :)

HSBC: £1222 refunded 28/5/06; Second claim of £737-24 refunded 9/11/06; PPI + interest on personal loan refunded 27/7/08

MBNA: £100 refunded on first claim of £112; £208 refunded on second claim for £108 24/9/07; PPI £256-28 refunded 8/4/08

NatWest: £1581-71 refunded 16/12/06; personal loan CCA agreement not provided

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Loz

I fully understand your gripe, sadly it is just a way that companies expect employees to take on more responsibility with no increase in pay, it is increasingly common and has been for many years.

I am afraid it is called capitalism

 

That said, if there is any prospect of promotion or increased pay this will help, it's a sort of catch 22 situation really.

Any opinion I give is from personal experience .

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I've been here long enough to know that promotion or increased pay are very unlikely unless there is a big change in our clients' requirements :-(

I hate Alliance + Leicester

BT: No longer a customer :)

HSBC: £1222 refunded 28/5/06; Second claim of £737-24 refunded 9/11/06; PPI + interest on personal loan refunded 27/7/08

MBNA: £100 refunded on first claim of £112; £208 refunded on second claim for £108 24/9/07; PPI £256-28 refunded 8/4/08

NatWest: £1581-71 refunded 16/12/06; personal loan CCA agreement not provided

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I suggest again that you play by their own rules and apply them by the book, no exceptions, no grey areas, no leeway.

Apply the h&s rules on every occasion and very strictly and very soon they'll appoint someone else, especially when they see that this new responsibility takes a lot of your time that could be used to do your job.

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Thanks all for the replies. I may not have explained completely clearly (the H&S situation is a bit of a red herring); what I am objecting to specifically is being referred to by a job title which, although it exists in some of our other locations, does not exist in our tiny site.

 

I have again requested that they do not refer to me as manager/supervisor/team leader, all of which were used in the H&S policy and all of which are specific positions in the company above my pay grade. I have pointed out that I am not aware of the job description for such a position (hell, I don't seem to have a formal description for my current role!), and this makes me wary of being seen as responsible (in some eyes) for things that I have not received training/briefing/pay for.

 

So, as the "H&S is a red herring", this is all actually about the pay, truth be told?. As you "have not received training/briefing/pay for" this, but you've declined the briefing and training ....

 

Today I have been asked to complete "H&S training for managers"

 

So, what, if anything have you put forward to them?, given:

 

I pointed this out to the H&S manager, that I am not a manager, but if they were to offer me such a position (2 grades above my current pay), then I might consider it... of course they will be doing no such thing. I understand that someone needs to be responsible for H&S on a local basis, as there is only two of us in this office

......

 

I am happy to take certain responsibilities at a local level,

 

So, if you understand someone needs to be responsible on a local basis, and are happy to take certain responsibilities, suggest to what degree you want to be briefed / trained / take responsibility, and then ask them to renumerate you on that basis ....

 

Pay aside (it would be nice!), if the creation of such a position were being considered there is no guarantee that I would consider applying, or that the company would consider me suitable!

 

You acknowledge the company has job needs that need to be fulfilled. You aren't co-operating with their current requests. You haven't told us what solution you are putting forward to meet those needs as an alternative to the company imposing a solution.

You might not even apply if they proposed such a position : sounds to me (together with your use of 'red herrings') that they might reasonably conclude you are aiming to make yourself redundant?.

 

I suggest again that you play by their own rules and apply them by the book, no exceptions, no grey areas, no leeway.

Apply the h&s rules on every occasion and very strictly and very soon they'll appoint someone else, especially when they see that this new responsibility takes a lot of your time that could be used to do your job.

 

They likely won't "just appoint someone else". They'll create a post that involves the level of responsibilities the company requires filled. Either the OP won't apply for it (and will make themselves redundant), or the company will appoint them, or the company will make the OP redundant.

Whichever choice, the OP is better coming up with a proposal that meets the company's needs and keeps them in a job (at a level of responsibility they are happy with!), unless what they are really after is redundancy ...

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I don't think they want to create a new position, they're just giving the op extra responsibilities.

That's why i suggested to be nice, accept them and apply h&s rules by the letter.

When they see the first detailed report with lots of issues they will probably pass the responsibility to someone who would sweep things under the carpet.

If there are no h&s concerns these new responsibilities should be easy to fulfil, but in my experience very few companies operate above board on h&s.

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If there are no h&s concerns these new responsibilities should be easy to fulfill

 

Tripe.

You are confounding "responsibilities" (which remain regardless of if there are concerns at the moment) with "current problems".

 

If there are no current problems that is good for the company as they don't have to make investments in plant / PPE and new (safer) systems of work. That doesn't reduce the responsibility of the person holding the H&S portfolio in the future, just means they don't have to report anything today!

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Tripe.

You are confounding "responsibilities" (which remain regardless of if there are concerns at the moment) with "current problems".

 

If there are no current problems that is good for the company as they don't have to make investments in plant / PPE and new (safer) systems of work. That doesn't reduce the responsibility of the person holding the H&S portfolio in the future, just means they don't have to report anything today!

 

We're saying the same thing.

If there are no issues the inspection would be much quicker and easier, just a lot of ticks.

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We're saying the same thing.

If there are no issues the inspection would be much quicker and easier, just a lot of ticks.

 

Only now. The OP's responsibilities will continue into the future, though.

 

So, the OP has the choice to influence how much responsibility they want to take on board now, or risk the company imposing a higher level on them or their replacement later.

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