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    • I've inserted their poc re:your.. 1 ..they did send 2 paploc's  3. neither the agreement nor default is mentioned in their 2.        
    • Hi Guys, i read a fair few threads and saw a lot of similar templates being used. i liked this one below and although i could elaborate on certain things (they ignored my CCA and sent 2 PAPs etc etc) , am i right in that at this stage keep it short? If thats the case i cant see what i need to add/change about this one   1)   the defendant entered into a consumer credit act 1974 regulated agreements vanquis under account reference xxxxxxx 2)   The defendant failed to maintain the required payment, arrears began to accrue 3)   The agreement was later assigned to the claimant on 29 September 2017 and notice given to the defendant 4)   Despite repeated requests for payment, the sum of 2247.91 remains due outstanding And the claimant claims a)The said sum of £2247.91 b)The interest pursuant to S 69 county courts act 1984 at the rate of 8% per annum from the date of issue, accruing at a daily rate of £xxxx, but limited to one year,  being £xxxx c)Costs   Defence:   The Defendant contends that the particulars of claim vague and are generic in nature. The Defendant accordingly sets out its case below and relies on CPR r 16.5 (3) in relation to any particular allegation to which a specific response has not been made.   1. The Claimant has not complied with paragraph 3 of the PAPDC ( Pre Action Protocol) Failed to serve a letter of claim pre claim pursuant to PAPDC changes of the 1st October 2017.It is respectfully requested that the court take this into consideration pursuant to 7.1 PAPDC.   2. The Claimant claims £2247.91 is owed under a regulated consumer credit account under reference xxxxxxx. I do not recall the precise details or agreement and have sought verification from the claimant and the claimants solicitor by way of a CPR 31.14 and section 78 request who are yet to fully comply.   3. Paragraph 2 is denied. I am unable to recall the precise details of the alleged agreement or any default notice served in breach of any defaulted payments. 4. Paragraph 3 is denied.The Defendant contends that no notice of assignment pursuant to s.136 of the Law of Property Act & s.82 A of the CCA1974 has ever been served by the Claimant as alleged or at all.   5. It is therefore denied with regards to the Defendant owing any monies to the Claimant, the Claimant has failed to provide any evidence of assignment/balance/breach requested by CPR 31. 14, therefore the Claimant is put to strict proof to:   (a) show how the Defendant has entered into an agreement; and (b) show and evidence any cause of action and service of a Default Notice or termination notice; and © show how the Defendant has reached the amount claimed for; and (d) show how the Claimant has the legal right, either under statute or equity to issue a claim;   6. After receiving this claim I requested by way of a CPR 31.14 request and a section 78 request for copies of any documents referred to within the Claimants' particulars to establish what the claim is for. To date they have failed to comply to my CPR 31.14 request and also my section 78 request and remain in default with regards to this request.   7. As per Civil Procedure Rule 16.5(4), it is expected that the Claimant prove the allegation that the money is owed.   8. On the alternative, as the Claimant is an assignee of a debt, it is denied that the Claimant has the right to lay a claim due to contraventions of Section 136 of the Law of Property Act and Section 82A of the consumer credit Act 1974.   9. By reasons of the facts and matters set out above, it is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief.  
    • i understand. Just be aware I am prepared to take some risks 😉
    • Thanks Tnook,   Bear with us while we discuss this behind the scenes - we want you to win just as much as you do but we want to find the right balance between maximising your claim without risking too much in court fees, and in possible court costs awarded to the defendant bank.
    • Tell your son and think on this. He can pay the £160  and have no further worries from them. If he read POFA  Scedule 4 he would find out that if he went to Court and lost which is unlikely on two counts at least [1] they don't do Court and 2] they know they would lose in Court] the most he would be liable to pay them is £100 or whatever the amount on the sign says. He is not liable for the admin charges as that only applies to the driver-perhaps.If he kept his nerve, he would find out that he does not owe them a penny and that applies to the driver as well. But we do need to see the signage at the entrance to the car park and around the car park as well as any T&Cs on the payment meter if there is one. He alone has to work out whether it is worth taking a few photographs to help avoid paying a single penny to these crooks as well as receiving letters threatening him with Court , bailiffs  etc trying to scare him into paying money he does not owe. They know they cannot take him to Court. They know he does not owe them a penny. But they are hoping he does not know so he pays them. If he does decide to pay, tell him to wait as eventually as a last throw of the dice they play Mister Nice Guy and offer a reduction. Great. Whatever he pays them it will be far more than he owes as their original PCN is worthless. Read other threads where our members have been ticketed for not having a permit. [We know so little about the situation that we do not know if he has a permit and forgot to display it. ]
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Smokey1607

Aintree NHS Parking breach of contract

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I recently got a ticket at the hospital,

long story short

the car park was full but no sign to say so and there were 15-20 cars circling looking for a spot.

 

After a good 20-30 minutes someone left and I dived in only to see it was on yellow chevrons at the end of an aisle.

 

The car before had no ticket and I couldn't wait any longer so took the risk

. As it was full I should not have been allowed entry or there should have been a sign to say it was full.

 

On the yellow bag is printed Breach of Contract and on the ticket it says Legal Notice of Breach of Contract and its for £60 or £30 if paid within 14 days'.

 

I have now received the follow up letter from Trethowans Solicitors demanding payment within 14 days of the letter dated 21st October.

 

How am I best to proceed as I think I was allowed into the car park when there was clearly no availability to park?

Thanks

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Hi

While most of this is not yet relevant, could you please let us know as much as possible from these questions:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?462118-Have-you-received-a-Parking-Ticket-(1-Viewing)-nbsp


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1) 12/9/16

2) No appeal

3) No mention of PoFA

4) N/A

5) Initial payment was to be made to Aintree NHS Hospital Trust with appeal to their Car Parking and the subsequent letter is from Trethowans Solicitors with payment to be made to them.

6) Car park at Aintree NHS Trust, Lower Lane, Liverpool L9

 

Thanks

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Write back to the rentathreat soliciotrs and tell them that there is no keeper liability in this matter and to tell their client to take the matter up with the driver at the time. Any further correspondence will be reported as harassment.

In truth there are several reasons why this claim is rubbish but rather than go through them all and give the parking co the opportunity to change their story just make them do the running with this simple truth.

NEVER TELL A PARKING COMPANY WHO WAS DRIVING AT THE TIME.

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At the moment, I cannot find any link for Aintree Hospitals NHS foundation trust with either ATA (IPC and BPA). A bit more searching required.

 

Can you upload the documents received in pdf format (so we can zoom in) but please remove all identifying data. The car registration, your name and address, reference numbers and any barcodes or QR codes.

As they make no mention of PoFA then it should be assumed they are members of the IPC but I can't find anything on the IPC website (unless they trade under a different name) or it is a subcontractor using the hospitals name for the charges.


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After doing a little searching, it is likely that you haven't received a Notice to Keeper as Aintree issue parking tickets and then when they get no response, they pass the matter directly to Trethowan Solicitors. As such, there is no keeper liability. You are under no obligation to name the driver however Trethowan do take court action and as such, you should complain to the hospital CEO.

 

As the car park is barrier entry/exit there should be controls in place to stop entry once full. As this did not happen, I would consider it to be a type of entrapment. You are allowed in but not allowed out unless you go to the ticket machine. In that time, you could get a ticket.

 

After reading around some forums, it seems Trethowans use PoFA as and when it suits them so I would be writing back to them stating that as no valid Notice to Keeper has been issued then they can only claim against the driver and that you are under no obligation to name them.

I would also demand that they tell you under what right they had to obtain the keeper details from the DVLA as they don't seem to be a member of any of the trade bodies.

Send this by snail mail, Signed For delivery and ensure that you print off the proof of delivery.

 

Expect some guff from them saying that they have complied fully.


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not POFA compliant so send the one line response "there is no keeper liability in this matter, tell your client to take the matter up with the driver at the time. Any furhter correspondence will result in a complaint of harassment"

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Yes thanks very much, I've done a combination of this and what silverfox said.

Help from both appreciated. Cheers.

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OK, do take this matter up with the DVLA by asking them who requested your keeper details and why. There may be a complaint to the ICO about whoever it was and the DVLA for giving it out.

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OK, do take this matter up with the DVLA by asking them who requested your keeper details and why. There may be a complaint to the ICO about whoever it was and the DVLA for giving it out.

 

Ditto. Unless the hospital or the solicitor has a special dispensation (which I doubt) how did they get keeper data? Are they using a registered PPC to get the details for them?

 

As such, questions need to be asked and quickly. We have no idea how long Trethowans take before issuing court claims.


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Read the pranksters blog about MIL getting a flaming for the misuse of the KADOE system that the ppc's use (basically the computer access to the DVLA database and the conditions they agree to) this would fall into the same category, they cant use it for passing on to others

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Silly question but one that should have been asked earlier. On the original ticket, was there anything about appealing?

Below is a link to the Gov and hospital charges

 

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles/nhs-patient-visitor-and-staff-car-parking-principles#fnref:5

 

If they did do court, the simple fact is the barrier allowed entry when a car park was full but not allowing exit without a ticket so by parking anywhere to go and get the exit ticket verified would automatically have the risk of getting a ticket.


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What was the date of the original ticket? (notice to driver / NtD).

What was the date of the original letter from Trethowans? (that they claim is a notice to keeper / NtK)

 

You could claim that the letter from Trethowans doesn't state that it is a NtK.

Either way, it seems they intend to rely on POFA 2012, Schedule 4, to establish keeper liability.

They issued a NtD ; their "NtK" notes this, so the keeper now knows this even if the driver hasn't mentioned it ;)

 

Since they issued a NtK, para's 7&8 of Schedule 4 apply (rather than para 9, which is for when no NtD was issued, only a NtK).

 

8(2)(f) requires

(2)The notice must—

(f) warn the keeper that if, at the end of the period of 28 days beginning with the day after that on which the notice to keeper is given—

(i) the amount of the unpaid parking charges (as specified under paragraph © or (d)) has not been paid in full, and

(ii )the creditor does not know both the name of the driver and a current address for service for the driver,

the creditor will (if all the applicable conditions under this Schedule are met) have the right to recover from the keeper so much of that amount as remains unpaid;

 

Their "notice" states 14 days after the NtK, not 28 days. So, it isn't POFA compliant. (It may be non-compliant on other grounds too, but in case they are reading, lets 'keep the powder dry' : no need to give them all the flaws to correct at once!.)

 

So, "Dear Sirs,

It remains that your supposed 'Notice to Keeper' does not comply with the requirements of the POFA 2012. There is thus still no 'Keeper liability'.

 

If you still feel your letter of is a POFA 2012 compliant NtK, a court can decide this based on the arguments from the parties.

As it appears our positions are entrenched in disagreement on this fundamental issue, no further correspondence will be entered into, pending receipt of a County Court claim."

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What was the date of the original ticket? (notice to driver / NtD).

What was the date of the original letter from Trethowans? (that they claim is a notice to keeper / NtK)

 

I see their most recent letter says "NtD": 12/9/16 and "NtK" 21/10/16.

They are now out of time to send another (POFA compliant) NtK.

I see they want you to tell them why you think their "Ntk" is non-compliant. I don't see why you should do their job for them.

If it came to court (which it won't!) you'd have to tell the court ; you have no obligation to tell them!.

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so did you get on to the DVLA and ask who has accessed your data and what reason did they give. If you havent you will now see why we ask these things. Trethowans are hoping that your ignorance means you wont question their assertions again and now pay up. I would suggets you avoid any correspondence with them until you know from the DVLA whether they claimed they were using the POFA to obtain keeper details or whether they were relaint on the relevant section of the RTA. There is a big difference and that is they mustshow reasonable belief that the driver and keeper are the same and that menas not just them saying it is obviously the same but having some evidential trail that leads them to this conclusion

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Thanks guys and to try and answer in sequence of your comments since my post at 10.22:

Silverfox there was mention of appeal but for a number of reasons I didn't, so not sure if this was an oversight on my part.

 

BazzaS I see you answered your own point on the dates and appreciate your information and it seems to make sense to reply on the lines of your post at 11.12. ericsbrother do you agree or do you think ignoring for now is best? I think replying as BazzasS says shows I know whats what (thanks to you guys) and they may just cease without further court threats etc?

 

And yes ericsbrother I have been on to DVLA but have had no response yet. I'll chase it up but think they're still within their reply by time frame to my complaint. I see in that last comment you say dont respond to them until I know what DVLA say and then reply as BazzaS says with additional comment based on DVLA?

 

Thanks again everyone, just too busy to look into this myself so all your help is massive.

Edited by honeybee13
Paras.

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No harm in not replying until you have the info from DVLA.

 

You want to let them know you won't be browbeaten and you "know what is what", but at the same time avoid "letter tennis" so they know you aren't an "easy mark", so that:

A) they give up and move onto "easier fry", or

B) are stupid enough to admit to unlawful actions .... either in a letter to you or (less likely) a submission to the court!

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usual stock response that doesnt answer the question of WHY your data was accessed. anyone can access the data if they have a reason for doing so, giving false information to get that information is an offence though and that is what this is about.

Basically the DVLA make money flogging it on but is slapdash about checking the reasosn why these companies are dipping into the database as it is a nice earner for them. It is the lack of a genuine reason and the automatic access that is the issue, not the who may

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Is this something to pursue then with the DVLA? If so any suggested wording/points to make?

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