PE Claim form - PCN Sounth Mimms Service station oct 2016 **PAID IT**

[jvdw007]

I have read the thread Received-a-Court-Claim-From-A-Private-parking-Speculative-invoice-How-To-Deal-With-It-HERE***Updated-Aug-2016

 

am keen to use the template there as my defence,

 

however my situation is "interesting" so would be keen to hear what you all think I can do/change in that defence template to adjust it to my situation:

 

I received a claim via post from County Court Business Center,

whereby Parkingeye are claiming £175 against me for overstaying in a services center (South Mimms).

Claim date 10 Oct 2016 and

I replied with Admission on 13th Oct.

 

How it all started:

 

I went to meet up with people I had never met before to go off road motorcycling.

I drove my vehicle and trailer from where I live in Aldershot to the meeting point in the South Mimms services area.

 

 

At no point did I notice signs about having to pay for parking inside the shops after 2 hours of free parking as I never went near the shops.

 

I guess I was focused on where to go,

where the people I was meeting were and where I could park the car out of the way.

 

In any case,

I met them,

got all geared up and left,

expecting to be gone only a couple of hours.

 

 

I returned after almost 8 hours due to various reasons.

Mainly that I ran out of fuel on my offroad bike,

so had to push and splutter it to get back to the South Mimms services.

 

 

Saying this, it would've only added maybe 2 hours at most to my returning time,

so I would've clearly still been gone for 6 hours.

However I did not know how long we were going to be gone in the first place.

 

When I eventually got the bike back to the car, I packed up and left. Again, never having come close to the shops.

 

A few weeks later I got a letter which looked well dodgy from a DCA.

I looked online and everyone said don't pay them they are [removed].

 

 

I ignored that letter and maybe 2 or 3 more that came in the post.

I then heard no more thinking good riddance.

 

Now, a few months later,

I got this court claim and have to go to court to pay this fee.

I have read up on this a bit and it seems to me that if I just admit guilt,

I could get a CCJ regardless if I pay now or not.

 

I've decided to defend against the full claim.

Not sure this will make any difference as I guess I am pretty much guilty for not being more pro-active in looking for signage.

 

On google maps you can see signs in various places.

However at the time I didn't notice them as I wasn't focused on that at all.

 

 

I've lived in the uk for 7 years now and in that entire time I've used services areas perhaps 5 or 6 times.

I never knew that there would even be parking fees as I've never seen machines dotted around like you get in council parkings. Again I guess this was a bad assumption on my part.

 

Now I've gone into moneyclaim.gov.uk and completed the Acknowledgement of Service.

However, I am unsure what to do next.

 

 

I don't know if I should dispute the whole claim or part of the amount.

 

Either way, I need to ask if any of you know how to proceed now,

ie: Do I write a letter to parkingeye asking to pay a discounted fee,

or do I just write up a defence and submit it via the website?

 

I have bought the parking prankster's amazon book and tried to read as much of it as I can

but it's very intimidating with information overload.

 

 

I found the template he provides for a defence and thought I might start with that and try change it to cater for my situation but since your defence template on the thread I linked above seemed better, I thought I'd use that one instead.

 

I'd like to attach a scan of the claim form but since my posts are less than 10, I am unable to.

 

Any help would be welcome on how to proceed next

[dx100uk]

you dont need to scan the form

 

all you need to do is do what that link says...

 

so..where the info we asked for...

 

you need to get the private parking CPR 31:14 running to the solicitors

 

 

available in many threads here already

[ericsbrother]

so, trying to read through your lengthy and disjointed reasons for overstay I think that you have visited the same place twice. If so read up on "double dipping".

 

Your other explanation about running out of fuel would also be a reason for a lengthy overstay that wouldnt breach any condition but I cannot reconcile this with how you left the service station on an off-road vehicle. Does the bike have a reg plate and what direction did you leave- via the public road system or by some other byway/path?

 

You say you replied with admission on the 13th- what do you mean by admission? that part of the form basically says that you agree you owe the money and if you have ticked that box then anything else is entirely pointless regardless of the rights and wrongs of the case.

 

IF NOT (assuming just an acknolegement of service)

What to do- well when you submit a skeleton defence (just bullet points, not essays) you can say that 1/ there is no contract between PE and the landowner so no "locus standi" (they will have a contract with whoever has a licence to operate there or even one of the sub-licencees). 2/ PE do not have planning permission for their signage so you cannot enter into a criminal compact with them 3/That you ran out of fuel and therefore no breach as you were not parked but broken down.

 

You then need to send the CPR 31.14 request to the lawyers acting for them regarding points 1 and 2 asking for sight of the permissions. Give them 14 days to respond, if they dont you can use this against them later on.

Edited October 14, 2016 by honeybee13
Paras.

[jvdw007]

Apologies for confusing matters.

1. I Acknowledged the service only.

2. I arrived at the South Mimms services in my car, towing my off road motorcycle in a trailer. I left with people on my motorcycle, leaving the car parked. I returned on motorcycle later, put it back on trailer, got into car, drove off. So only a single visit as such not a double dipping visit.

 

I will fill the CPR in today and post it off tomorrow via recorded delivery to their solicitors. I assume that's the "Address for sending documents and payments" on the claim form, which lists Parkingeye's address.

 

Thanks for your responses so far!

 

Name of the Claimant ? Parkingeye Ltd

 

Date of issue – 10 Oct 2016

 

Date to submit defence = 11 Nov 2016

 

What is the claim for –

 

1.Claim for money outstanding from the defendant, as registered keeper, in relation to a Parking Charge, issued 29/07/2016, for parking on private land in breach of the terms and conditions (the contract).

 

2. ParkingEye's automated number plate recognition system, monitoring Welcome Break South Mimms-Hertfordshire (Car Stop), M25 Jct 23, Bignell Corner, Potters Bar, EN63QQ, captured vehicle REG NO. entering and leaving the site, parking without a valid paid parking ticket.

 

3.The signage, clearly displayed at the entrance and throughout the site, states this is private land, is managed by ParkingEye Ltd, and parking tariffs apply after a free stay period, along with other T+C's by which those who park on site agree to be bound.

 

4.In accordance with the T+C's set out in the signage, the Parking Charge became payable. Notice under the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012 has been given under Sch 4, making the keeper liable. This claim is in reference to Parking Charge(s) xxxx/xxxxx

 

What is the value of the claim?

Amount claimed: £100,

Court fee: £25,

Legal representative's costs: £50,

Total amount: £175

 

Has the claim been issued by the original creditor

or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim Parking Eye

 

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment?

I honestly don't know but I never received anything after the DCA letters stopped as far as I'm aware.

[dx100uk]

ok fair comment send it to PE then

 

 

did you find the parking CPR31:14 from this forum....

 

 

[Your address]

.

[Their address]

.

[Date]

.

Dear Sir or Madam,

.

Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No:

.

CPR 31.14 Request

.

On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) county court.

.

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest and counter claim all of your claim.

.

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

.

1. proof of assignment from the landlord to create contracts and make claims in your own name.

.

2.proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and Country Planning Act 2007

the contract between VCS and the landowner that assigns the right to enter into contracts with the public and make claims in their own name,

Planning Permission for their signage under the Town and Country Planning Act 2007,

copies of the notice to driver,

notice to keeper and any other correspondence from VCS or Gladstones to the defendant.

Give them 14 days to comply

.

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are disclosed at your earliest convenience..

.

Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy.

.

Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

.

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

.

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

.

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request please confirm in your response.

.

Yours faithfully

.

TYPE YOUR NAME DO NOT SIGN IT

[jvdw007]

I did find it. Thank you very much for helping. I'm interested to see what they would do next

[ericsbrother]

Your defence will have to be based around PE's lack of a right ot make a claim

so knowing who they have signed a contract with is imperative.

 

You will also need to find out who the local council is and whetehr pE (or anyone else) has been granted planning permission for their signs and cameras.

 

This will be separate to the PP for all of the illuminated signs normal for a service station

so will be a lot more recent than them and that should idnentify whether they have or havent got it.

 

The law is the Town and Country Planning Act 2007,

look at other threads,

especially the Mansfield development one for the detail.

 

This also involved PE,as do a couple that got to court

so they cant plead ignorance

but they will lie to a judge and say it is deemed consent despite knowing it isnt.

 

No planning and they are committing a criminal offence having the signs there.

You cannot enter into a contract that involves criminality, even if you want to.

[jvdw007]

Sorry just adding this comment so I can get up to 10 so as to be able to post my links relevant to this thread

I hope that's ok.

 

ericsbrother said:

Your defence will have to be based around PE's lack of a right ot make a claim

so knowing who they have signed a contract with is imperative.

I found information on http://motorwayservicesonline.co.uk/South_Mimms which seems to indicate BP own the land. I am unsure how to contact BP.

 

ericsbrother said:

You will also need to find out who the local council is and whetehr pE (or anyone else) has been granted planning permission for their signs and cameras.

Hertsmere Borough Council.

Went to the site and searched here: http://www6.hertsmere.gov.uk/online-applications/search.do?action=simple

 

I was unable to find anything under the term "parkingeye" so instead searched the postcode EN63QQ. I went through all the results for that and was unable to find anything related to parkingeye and/or signage for parkings relating to the motorway services area.

 

I then called the council, and they stated that PE may not need planning permission to display parking signs or some cameras in the services area, and said there was a granted planning permission in Feb this year for illuminated advertisement signs. However, having looked on the council website again, the latest planning request is dated Fri 18 Dec 2015 which is way before my entrance to the services area and isn't related.

 

ericsbrother said:

This will be separate to the PP for all of the illuminated signs normal for a service station

so will be a lot more recent than them and that should idnentify whether they have or havent got it.

See above.

 

ericsbrother said:

The law is the Town and Country Planning Act 2007,

look at other threads,

especially the Mansfield development one for the detail.

I searched the forum and found http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?460108-Parking-eye&p=4862219&viewfull=1#post4862219 which seems it could be useful to use in my defence?

 

ericsbrother said:

This also involved PE,as do a couple that got to court

so they cant plead ignorance

but they will lie to a judge and say it is deemed consent despite knowing it isnt.

I'm not convinced as the council seemed to indicate they may not need consent.

 

ericsbrother said:

No planning and they are committing a criminal offence having the signs there.

You cannot enter into a contract that involves criminality, even if you want to.

[dx100uk]

they do need separate planning permission in their name for their signs

it is NOT covered by any 'general' permission.

sadly the council always say that as most staff are sadly legally unaware

[ericsbrother]

you need to read the plaaning regs in detail along with the Mansfield retail thread and its associated comments and you will understand.

 

When you phone the planning dept you speak to the most junior person and they dont really care about some minor breach as they have entire developments being built in the wrong place etc to occupy them.

 

When you have the exact wroding of the act you put it in writing and ask them very specifically in writing.

 

You will then find out that PE are unlikely to have PP as they dont in many places and rely on bluff and lies to get round this point.

[jvdw007]

I had a look this evening and it appears that I may have thrown away the original letter from PE where they had a ANPR photo of me leaving the services.

 

This means I don't know/can't recall if there was any POPLA code provided.

 

Either way, after having read that mansfield thread, I'm still unsure what to do at this point.

 

When you specify I need the exact wording and put it in writing to the council, I don't know what you mean.

 

Also, when should I put my defence in?

 

ASAP or on the last day before my deadline is up?

(I'm using the MCOL website to submit my defence.)

[dx100uk]

in post 1 you said....I replied with Admission on 13th Oct.

 

 

you mean defended all I take it...?

[ericsbrother]

Mansfield council told PE it did need PP and refused a retrospective application but fast tracked the one they eventually submitted.

 

On this post the coucil says what is needed any why, the application number etc.

All that can be quoted in a defence later but

 

you need to tell the local council what law you are querying because the person who answered the phone will not be the planning officer or the council lawyer but some poorly paid minion who can answer general enquiries and look up things on their system but willn ot be able to interpret what is there.

 

you need to know HAS PE applied and been granted PP for their signs at this location.

You dont need to argue whether they do.

[jvdw007]

Just a quick question I'm not 100% sure the answers to:

 

1. If I were to just admit guilt on the MCOL site, will I get a CCJ or does that depend on me paying?

2. If I were to submit a defence in court and fail, other than having to pay all the costs, will I get a CCJ?

 

I'm merely asking as I'm struggling to figure out what exactly to write to the council and the fact that even if I did, I may need to shell out yet more money to force a council member to come to court, and me still risk losing the case.

[dx100uk]

Just a quick question I'm not 100% sure the answers to:

 

1. If I were to just admit guilt on the MCOL site, will I get a CCJ or does that depend on me paying? - 28 days from judgement if not paid.

2. If I were to submit a defence in court and fail, other than having to pay all the costs, will I get a CCJ? same as above.

I'm merely asking as I'm struggling to figure out what exactly to write to the council and the fact that even if I did, I may need to shell out yet more money to force a council member to come to court, and me still risk losing the case.

you are looking at this with a far too complicated overview.

no you don't need council in court either

pers i'd be ringing the council

you need to answer post 19 too

[ericsbrother]

no council person will come to court so forget that.

If there is no record of PE having planning permission then they dont and they cant enter into contracts.

 

 

If they have planning permission they have to prove it by producing the evidence beforehand, they cant just tell a court that they have it but couldnt be bothered to show you all along.

 

It is all for them to prove that you owe the money becasue you failed to stick to an agreement.

 

If you were really worried about all of this before you got the court claim you should have done something about it sooner.

You have to go with what there is and that is a court claim for £xxx.

Without showing the planning consent they are going to lose.

 

 

They may well have a contract with someone at South Mimms but if that person or company doesnt own the land then the contract is worthless.

 

 

gain, they will need to show this beforehand and that is why you do a CPR 31.14 request for sight of the contract and the planning permission.

 

 

Without those you can get the claim struck out as being vexatious.

[jvdw007]

FYI I decided to just pay PE their stupid fees and move on with my life. I have enough other personal things to deal with so this was just the icing on the cake.

 

You can close this thread if you want to.

 

Thanks for all the help.

[Oddfellow]

Each to their own, and we have to respect your view not understanding your circumstances, but this is why these people continue in business.

 

 

Be lucky

[dx100uk]

:frusty: