Newlyn removed car for CTAX debt - but notice of enforcement is over 12 months old?

[Bru911]

I had outstanding council tax to Harrow council from a court hearing in May 2014.

The liability order was passed to Newlyns Bailiffs who issued a Notice of Enforcement on the 19/08/2015.

I paid the council direct in August 2016 and only the bailiff fees were outstanding.

 

The council have confirmed that the debt has been settled and only £310 bailiff fees are outstanding.

Made up of compliance £75 + Enforcement £235

 

Newlyns clamped my car on the public road then removed it 10/2016,

they said they had sent a Notice of Enforcement 19/08/2015.

This has also been confirmed by the council as the date of Notice of Enforcement letter being sent out.

 

My understanding is that Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013

9.—(1) Subject to paragraphs (2) and (3), the enforcement agent may not take control of goods of the debtor after the expiry of a period of 12 months beginning with the date of notice of enforcement.

 

The Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014

17.—(1) The enforcement agent may not recover fees or disbursements from the debtor in relation to any stage of enforcement undertaken at a time when the relevant enforcement power has ceased to be exercisable.

 

Newlyns have acted unlawfully by enforcing after 12months have passed

and removing my car to recover the outstanding fees as the date of notice of enforcement 19/08/2015 is more than 12 months ago.

 

I have emailed Newlyns and I'm awaiting a response.

[unclebulgaria67]

Have you also complained to Harrow council about this, as they are responsible for Newlyns actions ?

 

Ask Harrow council whether they passed on to Newlyn any of the money you paid in August. This would mean that the council tax liability was still partially outstanding.

[Peterbard]

Problem here is that paying the council direct does not kill the enforcent power,the account had not been payed in full.

 

Also if the payment was made less than 12mnths ago it can be regarded as a payment of an arrangement, the period will run from the failure if that arrangement. Subsection 2 of the part referred to.

Anyway see what they say.

[Bailiff Advice]

How much was the Liability Order for?

 

It is very odd for an enforcement company to wait one year to enforce a debt. Had you moved address or is there another reason why there was such a delay?

 

What was the exact date that you made payment direct to Harrow Council?

 

When the bailiff regulations were first introduced in 2014, many local authorities either didn't understand about the 'pro rata' distribution of payments or did not have the accounting software to deal with direct payments. The position now is that most councils are really on the ball with direct payments and do not retain the full payment for themselves and instead, account to the enforcement company as per the legislation. The way in which the 'pro rata' distribution is dealt with is outlined in the following guidance:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?453047-Bailiff-enforcement-Setting-up-a-payment-arrangement-and-whether-you-can-pay-the-court-or-the-council-direct

Edited January 11, 2022 by dx100uk
unnecessary previous post quote removed

[Bru911]

@unclebulgaria67 no monies were passed onto Newlyn the account was paid in fulll to Harrow council , there is no council tax liability outstanding or partially owing.

 

@Dodgeball the account with Harrow has been paid in full, only the bailiff fees outstanding nothing else £310. Harrow never passed on any sums to Newlyn so I have zero balance with harrow council.

 

I have not entered into any arrangement with any parties, I paid in full to the council what was owed to them.

 

I would have thought the time frame stipulated in the legislation is very clear and they are in a clear breach.

 

Where is this interpretation "payment to council in full means you enter into an arrangement with bailiff" ...what are the arrangement terms, where is this stipulated and where is this outlined in legislation?

 

a notice of enforcement letter is not a debtor entering into a payment arrangement.

[Peterbard]

If the accountf was with the bailff the amount amount outstanding will include fees. If you just paid the sum owed to the authority the balance will be due

 

Sorry yes section9(2) is indeed clear.

 

As for the payment not being an arrangement to pay the Ballance, I believe the council did tell you there were sums outstanding amount? Anyway that would be for you to show. I suggest you wait an see what they say.

[Bru911]

I did not enter into a payment agreement with Newlyn. I know what a payment arrangement form looks like i did not enter into one with Newlyn or anyone.

Are you trying to interpret the Notice of enforcement letter means I automatically enter into a repayment arrangement by Notice of Enforcement letter being sent out.

This does not happen, a payment arrangement has not been made between Newlyn and the debtor.

they cannot just state because they sent out a Notice of Enforcement that this is a repayment arrangement has been entered into, a NOTICE OF ENFORCEMENT is not an arrangement

 

The Taking Control of Goods Regulations 2013

 

(2) Where—

(a)after giving notice of enforcement the enforcement agent enters into an arrangement with the debtor for the repayment, by the debtor, of the sum outstanding by instalments (a repayment arrangement);

Edited October 11, 2016 by Bru911
typo

[Peterbard]

As said that would be for you to argue, however the Ballance EA would have been due and the EA would have expected full payment.

 

It was after all their legal entitlement.

 

A large I ritual payment could be interpreted as the first payment on an arrangement I should think k, and

 

Arrangement's are not contractual so nothing needs to be in writing.

[unclebulgaria67]

If Harrow council confirm that they have kept your money as full payment of the liability order, then this strengthens your hand. Suggest you obtain this confirmation.

[Bru911]

The council system shows only bailiff fess are outstanding and the notice of enforcement has expired which is my point. Balance outstanding or not . My point is they should not have enforced as the notice of enforcement has expired, you seem to be missing the blatant fact.

i owed nothing to the council and the notice of enforcement has expired when they clamped and lifted the car to get the bailiff fees that were left owing. Their powers to enforce expired 12 months after the date of notice of enforcement.

[Peterbard]

If Harrow council confirm that they have kept your money as full payment of the liability order, then this strengthens your hand. Suggest you obtain this confirmation.

 

No sorry but it does no such thing, the fees are Payable to the bailiff under statute.

 

The amount due will not have been paid in either case.

 

The council system shows only bailiff fess are outstanding and the notice of enforcement has expired which is my point. Balance outstanding or not . My point is they should not have enforced as the notice of enforcement has expired, you seem to be missing the blatant fact.

i owed nothing to the council and the notice of enforcement has expired when they clamped and lifted the car to get the bailiff fees that were left owing. Their powers to enforce expired 12 months after the date of notice of enforcement.

 

Bailiff fees and sums due to the authorith will become part of the same debt when passed to the EA.

[unclebulgaria67]

No sorry but it does no such thing, the fees are Payable to the bailiff under statute.

 

The amount due will not have been paid in either case.

 

It would prove that Newlyns were not pursuing CT liability outstanding and were simply chasing their fees, when the notice of enforcement was issued more than 12 months previous.

[Bailiff Advice]

I did not enter into a payment agreement with Newlyn. I know what a payment arrangement form looks like i did not enter into one with Newlyn or anyone.

Are you trying to interpret the Notice of enforcement letter means I automatically enter into a repayment arrangement by Notice of Enforcement letter being sent out.

This does not happen, a payment arrangement has not been made between Newlyn and the debtor.

they cannot just state because they sent out a Notice of Enforcement that this is a repayment arrangement has been entered into, a NOTICE OF ENFORCEMENT is not an arrangement

 

 

What Dodgeball was referring to is that whilst the 12 month period does indeed run form the Date of the Notice of Enforcement, it is nonetheless the case that if a payment arrangement had been set up following the Notice of Enforcement, and the arrangement defaulted, the 12 month period would run from the date of the default (and not from the date of the Notice of Enforcement).

 

It would seem from what you have stated, that a payment arrangement had not been in place and accordingly, the 12 month period should indeed run from the date of the Notice of Enforcement.

[Peterbard]

No it would prove the council are holding part of the amount outstanding and the EA are pursuing the Ballance. The EA would be advised of the payment and alter the accountt accordingly

[Bailiff Advice]

The council system shows only bailiff fess are outstanding and the notice of enforcement has expired which is my point. Balance outstanding or not . My point is they should not have enforced as the notice of enforcement has expired, you seem to be missing the blatant fact.

 

i owed nothing to the council and the notice of enforcement has expired when they clamped and lifted the car to get the bailiff fees that were left owing. Their powers to enforce expired 12 months after the date of notice of enforcement.

 

I did ask you earlier this morning to let us know the exact date that you made payment to Harrow Council. Could you confirm the date please.

 

I would be shocked...in fact staggered if Harrow Council would retain all of your payment and fail to comply with the 'pro-rata' distribution as outlined in legislation. Personally, I would not be relying on what you may see on the council system. This council may well account for the bailiff fees in a slightly different way to other councils. They may account on a monthly or even quarterly basis.

 

Harrow Council have been working with Newlyn's for many years and although there are reports of approx 6 councils (out of over 300) that retain direct payments, I would be shocked if Harrow were one of them.

 

If you could let us know the precise date that you made payment to Harrow Council that would be most helpful.

[Peterbard]

As said wait and see what they say,but I think they would have a good argument to say the first partial payment represented an arrangement to pay the full Ballance.

[Bru911]

ok checked twice yesterday and once today.

Paid £605.52 on 03/08/2016 to harrow council and they accepted that payment in full and there is nothing outstanding. When enforcement action took place there was zero balance owed to the council with no pro rata payment distribution outstanding monthly or quarterly. Full payment has been retained by Harrow council and the bailiff was collecting their fees only.

[Peterbard]

Hmm so not twelve months after the notice.

 

The means the warrant was live when you paid and the bailiffs were entitled to their fees.

[Bru911]

i paid the council direct.

I made no arrangement with Newlyn Bailiffs,

I paid no monies to Newlyn

I paid monies to the council direct

and have no arrangement to break with Newlyn

as I have entered into no arrangement with them verbally or otherwise there is no arrangement to break.

 

The notice of enforcement was issued byNewlyns 19/08/2015 and

i paid the council 03/08/2016

 

 

Newlyns bailiff enforcment action took place on 10/10/2016.

 

 

No arrangement was made with Newlyns nor was any entered into directly where do you count arrangement made date as I have not made one .

Edited October 11, 2016 by Bru911

[Bailiff Advice]

ok checked twice yesterday and once today.

Paid £605.52 on 03/08/2016 to harrow council and they accepted that payment in full and there is nothing outstanding. When enforcement action took place there was zero balance owed to the council with no pro rata payment distribution outstanding monthly or quarterly. Full payment has been retained by Harrow council and the bailiff was collecting their fees only.

 

I am sorry to have to tell you but you have not cleared the Liability Order. As I said above, Harrow Council should deduct from your payment the compliance fee of £75 and the balance (£530.52) should be apportioned as follows:

 

£318.30 should be allocated towards the Liability Order

£212.20 should be allocated towards Newlyn's fees.

 

As you can see, the Liability Order has not been satisfied.

 

I would be very interested to read the reply from Newlyns. Please do post up a copy when received.

[Bru911]

But they have not they have retained the full amount and told me directly 3 times that my balance is zero and so i have nothing to pay should i go and get it in writing from them.

 

As right now it is balance zero and the liabilty order is satisfied is what they are saying.

 

and they have accepted my payment and what should happen and what has happened is different.

[Peterbard]

I think you should realize that once a collection is passed to the to the EA, paying either them or the authority amounts to the same thing.

 

This is a problem we have come cross before on here. "waiting it out", depends on the EA returning the account back to the authority at the right time, that is between the time the account is returned and the time it is re issued to another bailiff.

It would seem that you paid the council to early, whilst the warrant was still live.

So even after payment of the liability order the fees are due. You will probably also find that when the account does go back and payments are apportioned you will still be liable for some of the ammount to the council.

[Bailiff Advice]

But they have not they have retained the full amount and told me directly 3 times that my balance is zero and so i have nothing to pay should i go and get it in writing from them. As right now it is balance zero and the liabilty order is satisfied is what they are saying. and they have accepted my payment and what should happen and what has happened is different.

 

You have already written to Newlyn's and it is far better to wait for their reply.

[lookinforinfo]

You may need to check with the Council that the L/O has not been renewed.

[Bru911]

l/o not renewed, zero and clear done and finished