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Government are gambling that EU wants a trade deal with UK, more than UK wants a trade deal with EU.

 

Therefore they are playing games, legislating to undermine withdrawal agreement, hoping that EU will suddenly give ground on the issues of disagreement e.g. state aid, fishing, Court arbitration on trade disputes, border customs arrangements.

 

The question is whether the EU countries are willing to agree to UK terms or can agree to UK terms. The EU may not be in position to offer the UK terms which affect trade agreements they have with other countries.

 

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Also interesting that Trumpettes are saying quick trade deals with the US can be quickly done 'piece by piece'   aka Anything the USA wants can be done quickly ... especially if it

A key plank of the US incursion is the banning of source of origin labelling so you don't know where the food comes from.

Err not quite. Here's the actual (unedited) quote by Lord James of Blackheath as recorded in Hansard:     https://hansard.parliament.uk/lords/2019-09-06/debates/0C259B8B-7232-4228-BB0

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It's a huge gamble, ending up with a no deal, if it goes visibly wrong and blows up in the governments face. Potential scenario of another perceived Covid failure on top of a no deal, would no doubt speed up the end of Johnson & co.

 

 

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Interesting thoughts from the North camp

 

https://www.turbulenttimes.co.uk/news/brexit/brexit-reaping-the-whirlwind-2/

 

Think Johnson is looking to break and run early  Meanwhile David Jones my MP is spouting more ERG garbage.

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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Good article, It's hard to see a scenario where Johnson doesn't get back stabbed by his own party.  The only way he survives is if he does a good job preventing / managing a second Covid wave, and a no deal turns out to have zero effect on anything. Based on what's going on now the chances of either look incredibly slim!

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On 08/09/2020 at 10:52, London1971 said:

It's also not inconceivable that 'long term', there are people banking that eventually  at some point in the next decade we will finally be led by the adults in the room. Who can at least start the long process of repairing damage.

Adults... Where ?? 

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That time is probably so far off we don't know who these 'adults' are yet. 

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2 hours ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

Government are gambling that EU wants a trade deal with UK, more than UK wants a trade deal with EU.

 

There is no reasons whatsoever to believe that would happen - none at all for at least 2 years

 

Quote

 

Therefore they are playing games, legislating to undermine withdrawal agreement, hoping that EU will suddenly give ground on the issues of disagreement e.g. state aid, fishing, Court arbitration on trade disputes, border customs arrangements.

 

The question is whether the EU countries are willing to agree to UK terms or can agree to UK terms. The EU may not be in position to offer the UK terms which affect trade agreements they have with other countries.

 

 

That isn't the question

the question is: all incompetence aside, what hints of method are there in Johnsons madness

 

The answer is Singapore-on-Thames - the very thing the Brexiters claimed wasn't going to happen.

 

 

1 hour ago, London1971 said:

Good article, It's hard to see a scenario where Johnson doesn't get back stabbed by his own party.  The only way he survives is if he does a good job preventing / managing a second Covid wave, and a no deal turns out to have zero effect on anything. Based on what's going on now the chances of either look incredibly slim!

 

None of thats going to happen is it

Wouldn't be surprised if johnson isn't BANKING on a full blown UK epidemic over winter and crash out day

 

Edited by tobyjugg2

Why the populist problem with customs checks to cross the Irish sea to meet International agreements and Law

... when Johnson is happy to implement a Border + Visas to access a lorry park in Kent?

 

£288 million pounds a week - The ADDITIONAL cost of Brexit customs bureaucracy alone - stuff that on the side of a bus.

 

Its official: Boris 'The Liar' Johnsons word is not worth the paper its written on

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More muppetry from my useless MP>

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My MP is bonkers ERG also, although my teenage son trolled him in front of the whole year group last year when he came to speak to assembly and took questions.  Got a laugh out of the whole group, including teachers.  Just the take down he deserved! 

 

Problem is, where I live they would vote for a turd if it had a blue ribbon, 

 

 

 

 

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He buys completely into Shankar Singham's Snake Oil.

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The bailiff: A 12th Century solution re-branded as Enforcement Agents for the 21st Century to seize and sell debtors goods as before Oh so Dickensian!

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1 hour ago, brassnecked said:

More muppetry from my useless MP>

 

 

LOL ERG revolting

and complaining that it doesn't go far enough

 

Everyone else, including real tories, thinking they must oppose this - lets hope theres enough

Even if there isn't, the Lords can tie it up for a year

 

.. but I think as far as Johnsons concerned - its served its purpose and made any deal pointless/worthless.

 

 

Johnsons' word isn't worth the wind he blows out his mouth

He's just made the UK's signature on documents worth just as little.

 

 

 

 

Why the populist problem with customs checks to cross the Irish sea to meet International agreements and Law

... when Johnson is happy to implement a Border + Visas to access a lorry park in Kent?

 

£288 million pounds a week - The ADDITIONAL cost of Brexit customs bureaucracy alone - stuff that on the side of a bus.

 

Its official: Boris 'The Liar' Johnsons word is not worth the paper its written on

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So will the UKIM bill be voted through today? There seem to be Tory rebels but I'm not sure there are enough of them.

 

Geoffrey Cox has spoken out against it and Cameron has joined the ex-PMs criticising the bill.

 

I enoyed the account of five top QCs berating Suella Braverman at the Bar Council on Saturday.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2020/sep/12/top-lawyers-slam-suella-braverman-for-wrecking-uks-reputation

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Illegitimi non carborundum

 

 

 

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Zero chance of it not going through, as the Tory majority is too big.

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29 minutes ago, honeybee13 said:

 

Geoffrey Cox has spoken out against it

 

Like we said, Cox may have been an extreme right wing Brexit law bending ....

but he wouldnt utterly trash Britains international standing by breaking international law.

 

.. Why he had to go in favour of Sue Braverman who actually seems to be a jobbing solicitor who has risen through lying and doing whatever her masters tell her, whether it breaks the law or not.

Was reading an interesting article about her that stated most of her claims to fame seem to be utterly lacking any credible support even when looked for by experts.

https://www.lbc.co.uk/radio/presenters/matt-frei/gina-miller-calls-for-attorney-general-to-resign-over-brexit-advice/

 

 

 

 

"Professor Mark Elliott, Chair of the Faculty of Law at the University of Cambridge. His “charge sheet" for the draft legislation reads as follows: “a confrontation with the EU, a stand-off with the courts, a fundamental attack on the rule of law, and a diminution of the UK's commitment to the rules-based international order."  He concludes: “The promotion by the UK Government of a Bill that expressly breaches the UK's international obligations is thus nothing short of extraordinary. !

Why the populist problem with customs checks to cross the Irish sea to meet International agreements and Law

... when Johnson is happy to implement a Border + Visas to access a lorry park in Kent?

 

£288 million pounds a week - The ADDITIONAL cost of Brexit customs bureaucracy alone - stuff that on the side of a bus.

 

Its official: Boris 'The Liar' Johnsons word is not worth the paper its written on

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Take where I live as an example, ERG maniac, hard burn it all down Brexiteer MP. Talk to Jo Average around here they don't care about what experts say, or boring stuff like international reputations.  That's the reason why Johnson feels empowered to do this.

 

 

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Also a fight lining up re Johnson planning to throw away 80 million Britains' Human rights just because he screwed up deporting a handful of undesirables

 

Just pause on that:

Justification:

The Tories made a mess of deporting a few undesirables

 

Johnson Solution:

Remove basic Human Rights for every British citizen

 

and because there is 'europe' mentioned:

brexiters note that this are from the Council of Europe of which Britain and Churchill were prime instigators long before the EU/common market.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-human-rights-act-uk-europe-convention-boris-johnson-b433013.html

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Council-of-Europe

 

 

Johnson the Liar is also facing a rebellion regarding his plans to trash the UK's food standards to get a US deal he's not going to get if he trashes the Irish peace accords - more lies coming home to roost in Johnsons hair

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-trade-deal-boris-johnson-chlorinated-chicken-hormone-beef-peers-b421986.html

 

 

All these things that Brexiters claimed were never going to happen ...

 

Why the populist problem with customs checks to cross the Irish sea to meet International agreements and Law

... when Johnson is happy to implement a Border + Visas to access a lorry park in Kent?

 

£288 million pounds a week - The ADDITIONAL cost of Brexit customs bureaucracy alone - stuff that on the side of a bus.

 

Its official: Boris 'The Liar' Johnsons word is not worth the paper its written on

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29 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

Also a fight lining up re Johnson planning to throw away 80 million Britains' Human rights just because he screwed up deporting a handful of undesirables

 

Just pause on that:

Justification:

The Tories made a mess of deporting a few undesirables

 

Johnson Solution:

Remove basic Human Rights for every British citizen

 

and because there is 'europe' mentioned:

brexiters note that this are from the Council of Europe of which Britain and Churchill were prime instigators long before the EU/common market.

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-human-rights-act-uk-europe-convention-boris-johnson-b433013.html

https://www.britannica.com/topic/Council-of-Europe

 

 

Johnson the Liar is also facing a rebellion regarding his plans to trash the UK's food standards to get a US deal he's not going to get if he trashes the Irish peace accords - more lies coming home to roost in Johnsons hair

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-trade-deal-boris-johnson-chlorinated-chicken-hormone-beef-peers-b421986.html

 

 

All these things that Brexiters claimed were never going to happen ...

 

Surely it wont matter if we stay or leave the Human Rights act ?  Unless the country we want to deport the criminal/immigrant to, accepts them.. then we wont be able to get shot of them anyway ?  Or did I miss something. 

 

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24 minutes ago, citizenB said:

Surely it wont matter if we stay or leave the Human Rights act ?  Unless the country we want to deport the criminal/immigrant to, accepts them.. then we wont be able to get shot of them anyway ?  Or did I miss something. 

 

 

 

Yep you missed something. The Human rights he is planning on revoking is not simply for deporting none UK undesirables - that is just the excuse/soundbite

 

 

56 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

Johnson planning to throw away 80 million Britains' Human rights just because he screwed up deporting a handful of undesirables

 

Just pause on that:

Justification:

The Tories made a mess of deporting a few undesirables

 

Johnson Solution:

Remove basic Human Rights for every British citizen

 

 

 

Why the populist problem with customs checks to cross the Irish sea to meet International agreements and Law

... when Johnson is happy to implement a Border + Visas to access a lorry park in Kent?

 

£288 million pounds a week - The ADDITIONAL cost of Brexit customs bureaucracy alone - stuff that on the side of a bus.

 

Its official: Boris 'The Liar' Johnsons word is not worth the paper its written on

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Share on other sites

aka Johnson is not just removing the laws underpinning the basic human rights of undesirables like abbu the hamster.

He's removing them for you and me and even all those brexiters who voted for him too

 

Think of removing the small number of genuine undesirables rights to legal representation

.. by removing everyones rights to it ..

Edited by tobyjugg2
  • Like 1

Why the populist problem with customs checks to cross the Irish sea to meet International agreements and Law

... when Johnson is happy to implement a Border + Visas to access a lorry park in Kent?

 

£288 million pounds a week - The ADDITIONAL cost of Brexit customs bureaucracy alone - stuff that on the side of a bus.

 

Its official: Boris 'The Liar' Johnsons word is not worth the paper its written on

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quite an assumption

.. but quite possibly correct for many of them

 

.. Wonder if enough ARE concerned

Edited by tobyjugg2

Why the populist problem with customs checks to cross the Irish sea to meet International agreements and Law

... when Johnson is happy to implement a Border + Visas to access a lorry park in Kent?

 

£288 million pounds a week - The ADDITIONAL cost of Brexit customs bureaucracy alone - stuff that on the side of a bus.

 

Its official: Boris 'The Liar' Johnsons word is not worth the paper its written on

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Share on other sites

Of course it does seem to be the case from the limited knowledge or competence shown by forum brexiters here, that they are unaware (or dont care) that WTO rules aren't just some default that the rest of the world manages nicely on as Johnson lies

 

* It IS a 'club you are a member of to gain the benefits ... like the EU

* There ARE rules and requirements, few of which it seems the UK has apparently implemented or ready even now

* A number of existing members (eg The USA) have objected to the UK having the access it wants

* Breaking the rules brings penalties in sanctions

and of course that The EU has special deals with many countries - which it (and they) do NOT have to apply to the UK under WTO.

 

Little has changed from this

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/jan/27/uk-cannot-simply-trade-on-wto-terms-after-no-deal-brexit-say-experts

Has Johnson even set up the schedules ? I doubt it.

 

and those deceived (or deceiving)  Brexiters need to understand the simple fact that: far from the very poor basic access under WTO rules, breaking international agreements mean sanctions NOT even poor access

 

Even the US is wary of EU sanctions

https://techxplore.com/news/2020-05-complies-wto-boeing-eu-sanctions.html

"This step ensures that there is no valid basis for the EU to retaliate against any US goods."

... Of course the USA is continuing its WTO accusations and seeking sanctions against Britain, France, Germany and Spain in the related Airbus matter ...

 

 

 

 

Edited by tobyjugg2

Why the populist problem with customs checks to cross the Irish sea to meet International agreements and Law

... when Johnson is happy to implement a Border + Visas to access a lorry park in Kent?

 

£288 million pounds a week - The ADDITIONAL cost of Brexit customs bureaucracy alone - stuff that on the side of a bus.

 

Its official: Boris 'The Liar' Johnsons word is not worth the paper its written on

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Share on other sites

Well, we'll soon see how many real Blue conservatives there are left in Parliament

 

Absolutely no way real Tories would vote for this.

 

 

Why the populist problem with customs checks to cross the Irish sea to meet International agreements and Law

... when Johnson is happy to implement a Border + Visas to access a lorry park in Kent?

 

£288 million pounds a week - The ADDITIONAL cost of Brexit customs bureaucracy alone - stuff that on the side of a bus.

 

Its official: Boris 'The Liar' Johnsons word is not worth the paper its written on

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So heres my one line summary of Johnsons international law and international treaty breaking 'internal market' bill

 

"Try to force the UK's nations to trade under Johnson the Liars terms because no-one else will"

 

 

- wonder if anyone will actually stick with it if it passes - especially Johnson (highly unlikely)

What is a 'law' based on breaking the law worth?

Edited by tobyjugg2

Why the populist problem with customs checks to cross the Irish sea to meet International agreements and Law

... when Johnson is happy to implement a Border + Visas to access a lorry park in Kent?

 

£288 million pounds a week - The ADDITIONAL cost of Brexit customs bureaucracy alone - stuff that on the side of a bus.

 

Its official: Boris 'The Liar' Johnsons word is not worth the paper its written on

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Share on other sites

So what do I think will happen?

If the Neil amendment gets passed - it will get more votes and maybe it will pass (because it kicks it into the grass a bit)

 

If any ERG amendment gets passed making even more extreme - it will be rejected unless the Neil amendment gives some mitigation (kicked into the grass).

 

If the Neil amendment doesn't get passed - it will be rejected.

 

I cant believe that even now that there is a majority of UK MP's who would vote for this disgraceful bill which sets the president that we will unilaterally trash our international agreements whenever some temporary demagogue thinks its 'convenient to do so.

 

Oh, and I dont think the neil amendment makes it any more palatable at all (and I'm quite certain the international community will feel the same) - just kicks it into the grass for a bit.

Edited by tobyjugg2

Why the populist problem with customs checks to cross the Irish sea to meet International agreements and Law

... when Johnson is happy to implement a Border + Visas to access a lorry park in Kent?

 

£288 million pounds a week - The ADDITIONAL cost of Brexit customs bureaucracy alone - stuff that on the side of a bus.

 

Its official: Boris 'The Liar' Johnsons word is not worth the paper its written on

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