Article 50 Discussion

[tobyjugg2]

22 minutes ago, Jase1982 said:

 

I disagree it's all Corbyn's fault

 

 

 

That makes about 9 of you then.

 

You, Corbyn, Dianne Abbott, perhaps two others in the shadow cabinet and perhaps 4 of the handful of remaining members of the NEC

 

 

MacDonnell has at least had the decency to step out of the cabinet ... mind you thats after he got blamed for Corbyns failures by noisy handful of rampant corbynistas 

 

[Jase1982]

12 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

 

That makes about 9 of you then.

 

You, Corbyn, Dianne Abbott, perhaps two others in the shadow cabinet and perhaps 4 of the handful of remaining members of the NEC

 

 

MacDonnell has at least had the decency to step out of the cabinet ... mind you thats after he got blamed for Corbyns failures by noisy handful of rampant corbynistas 

 

 

Mate, you're making no sense again, and just saying hysterical stuff.  I'm sorry but youd have to be a complete fool to believe it's all Corbyn's fault.  What would have happened if hed taken a stronger leave position is that he would have lost votes to someone like the lib dems.  He was in a tough position, and I've said before... he gave all the moderate labour MP's every opportunity to work together... but they all one after the other shafted him.  Jeremy Corbyn has worked all his life to better the lives of people less fortunate, and all this rubbish about extreme left taking over is nonsense.  What's extreme about wanting to end poverty, and dealing with homelessness.  Pointing out the downfall of privatisation and how its having a negative effect on civilisation.   Dealing with the housing crisis.. I dont see what's so extreme... we've all just been living in a free market capitalist world for so long..

 

I had a conversation with someone I work with (who voted tory) yesterday and she was arguing for equal pay, or better pay for NHS staff.  She's spoken about ending homelessness.  Pointing out that we just had a chance to elect a socialist who would actually deal with these issues is just white noise because everyone thinks all politicians are the same.  Centre ground politics has warped reality and distorted the narrative so that people cant see a different way out... coupled  with first past the post it just makes our politics and society so unequal

Edited December 14, 2019 by Jase1982

[tobyjugg2]

22 minutes ago, Jase1982 said:

 

making no sense again

 

 

 

Put corbyn on whatever pedestal you like, reality has just bitten.

 

[cjcregg]

6 hours ago, Maharg1 said:

You proved nothing.  All you continually harped on about was how great Commie Corbyn and the Labour party is and how

you are going to remain in the EU.

Read back through at what you said...

 

I did and once again you are completely wrong. I haven't expressed any opinion on Corbyn or Labour or that we'll remain in the EU.

 

Opinions are fine when they have at least some factual basis. If you want people to take you more seriously then at least try being honest. 

[cjcregg]

4 hours ago, fletch70 said:

 

Of course we will now have to wait 12 months to see what sort of trade deal we get

 

All the indications are that it'll take significantly more than 12 months. More like 12 years and in the meantime continued uncertainty for business, low investment and a weak pound. The real disaster is yet to happen.

[tobyjugg2]

There is no trade deal except what the EU believes it needs or wants, and thats withering by the hour.  Simple fact.

 

Look at how the EU has backed away from anything related over the last 2 months - didn't really matter whether corbyn or johnson won - corbyn had also already stated he wanted to renegotiate remain and leave.

 

 

[honeybee13]

The EU isn't happy about all the articles Boris wrote over the years and that led to the Conservative press publishing anti-Europe stuff.

 

From what I've read, a comprehensive trade agreement takes at least four years to negotiate.

 

I also saw that Verhofstadt wants to put in a clause that Brits can opt to have EU citizenship.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-eu-citizenship-keep-freedom-of-movement-guy-verhofstadt-chief-negotiator-opt-in-passports-a7465271.html

[tobyjugg2]

well Trump has largely said any close deal with the EU means no US deal

and the EU has effectively said that the US terms menas nothing even as close as a Canada deal for the UK if trumps US deal is struck

 

eg The US wants NO identification of sources on goods - the EU demands it

Johnson could of course cheat - and put not sources on US sourced goods, and sources on EU sourced goods

- but the US trade goals word it as more or less anything would give the US reason to unilaterally revoke some or any of the terms.

[determindator]

Boris will have to prove himself now to those who swapped from Labour to Cons. Those who voted Cons this time 'To get Brexit done''may not next time.

[Maharg1]

This test only has one question, but it's a very important one. By giving an honest answer, you will discover where you stand morally.
 

The test features an unlikely, completely fictional situation in which you will have to make a decision.
Remember that your answer needs to be honest, yet spontaneous.
Please scroll down slowly and give due consideration to each line.
 
THE SITUATION
 
You are in England, York to be specific.
There is chaos all around you caused by a hurricane with severe flooding.
This is a flood of biblical proportions.
You are a photo-journalist working for a major newspaper, and you're caught in the middle of this epic disaster. The situation is nearly hopeless
You're trying to shoot career-making photos.
There are houses and people swirling around you, some disappearing into the water.
Nature is unleashing all its destructive fury.
 
THE TEST
 
Suddenly, you see a man in the water.
He is fighting for his life, trying not to be taken down with the debris.
You move closer... Somehow, the man looks familiar...
 
You suddenly realise who it is... It's Jeremy Corbyn.
You notice that the raging waters are about to take him under forever.
 
You have two options:
 
You can save the life of Jeremy Corbyn or you can shoot a dramatic Pulitzer Prize-winning photo, documenting the death of one of the country's most well known men..
 
THE QUESTION
 
Here's the question, and please give an honest answer...
 
Would you select high contrast colour, or would you go with the classic simplicity of black and white?

[buckthorn]

3 hours ago, honeybee13 said:

 

 

From what I've read, a comprehensive trade agreement takes at least four years to 

I must be getting old and confused, so can you help me. question:-

Does that mean we will not be able to trade with the EU while this trade deal is being negotiated?

[tobyjugg2]

Of course we can

The terms ... thats another matter.

 

 

[cjcregg]

11 hours ago, tobyjugg2 said:

There is no trade deal except what the EU believes it needs or wants, and thats withering by the hour.  Simple fact.

 

Look at how the EU has backed away from anything related over the last 2 months - didn't really matter whether corbyn or johnson won - corbyn had also already stated he wanted to renegotiate remain and leave.

 

 

 

Is this post available in English?

 

If you're going to present a point of view at least put some effort into making it coherent. 

[cjcregg]

 

11 hours ago, honeybee13 said:

 

 

From what I've read, a comprehensive trade agreement takes at least four years to negotiate.

 

 

 

There's no off-the-shelf timetable for a trade agreement. Trade deals typically evolve over centuries but the UK is in a really unusual situation as it had adopted the EU's trading arrangements for the last 40 odd years and suddenly it finds itself without a trading agreement with any nation on earth, or even a recent history of having one. It's like a country of 60 million + people with a comparatively large economy moving on to planet earth and starting from scratch.

 

As a democracy the UK has a lot of competing interests and so we won't just be negotiating trade deals with other nations, we'll also have to negotiate with ourselves which will take forever and a day and in the meantime the uncertainty damages our economy. This is why Brexit is the disaster it is.  

 

 

 

 

[Maharg1]

Why is everyone so one sided and negative, or is that what you want other to believe.

 

Remember, it's not all one way, the world wants to trade with us, the EU sells more goods to the UK than the other way around

so it's more in their interest to get a trade deal with us than us with them.

 

Sellers in Europe are not going to sit on their arses and refuse to sell goods to the UK, there are a lot that

sell more to the UK than to their own nations and the rest of Europe.

 

[Jase1982]

27 minutes ago, Maharg1 said:

 

Sellers in Europe are not going to sit on their arses and refuse to sell goods to the UK, there are a lot that

sell more to the UK than to their own nations and the rest of Europe.

 

 

Brexit has got nothing to do with who sells what to who.  The government don't tell private companies where to trade.  This is all about the terms and conditions under which businesses operate, and without the risk of sounding like a broken record, businesses will have a choice to continue trading with us or to not.  The key issue has always been not to increase the costs to uk businesses because that would effect the amount of trade they do with the rest of the world because we have trade deals with the vast majority of wealthy countries, through the EU.  Leaving with no deal, or reduced terms would increase costs to uk businesses, which inevitably would hit our economy.

 

It's true that businesses would still buy from us, but if it's more expensive to buy from us then EU countries would choose whether to buy from us.  Subsequently, if we make it more expensive to buy goods in, then inevitably our export costs increase.

 

Brexit as it stands is basically imposing trade sanctions on ourselves.

 

Anyone that says businesses will still buy from us just doesn't understand the detail, how the EU works, or basic economics.

Edited December 15, 2019 by Jase1982

[Maharg1]

Which is what I said.  If the EU plonks 50% tarif on the Uk, we do the same to them so they have more to lose than we do.

[Jase1982]

11 minutes ago, Maharg1 said:

Which is what I said.  If the EU plonks 50% tarif on the Uk, we do the same to them so they have more to lose than we do.

Yeah that's mental.   Why would you want to enter into a trade war with the EU for no reason?  Again, they'll just choose to purchase more from countries in other parts of the world that don't engage in putting trade sanctions on their closest trading partners for no reason.

 

You misunderstand that the EU wouldn't be choosing to do anything.. tariffs would be applied by default.  And then your answer would be to further cripple our economy by raising tariffs on the EU when we rely on imports to produce stuff in order to export?  We literally need to import raw materials .  Getting into a trade war would just mean they buy less from us, and our 50% of our economy would end up being subject to increased costs.  In fact 100% of our economy would be affected because we'd also not be able to trade with the rest of the world under the terms negotiated through the EU.

[Maharg1]

You say we rely on exports, we will have the whole world to export to as soon as Bogo tells the EU to get stuffed.

[Maharg1]

[tobyjugg2]

17 hours ago, determindator said:

Boris will have to prove himself now to those who swapped from Labour to Cons. Those who voted Cons this time 'To get Brexit done''may not next time.

 

Sadly no he wont

 

remember

Theres no plan for no deal as we will get a great deal

No way would he or any Conservative allow any form of border in the Irish sea

No way would he put the NHS up for sale

 

 

Well he says his proposals are the great deal

The border in the irish sea is a non-border border not a border border, and the required documentation and searches just like other borders dont make it a border

and trump doesn't want to buy the NHS, just have US drug corporations bleed the UK taxpayer dry through it

 

 

 

and regarding my non-English English LOL

https://www.france24.com/en/20191126-johnson-no-deal-brexit-uk-elections-conservatives

[Maharg1]

If an Aspirin cost a penny from the US and two pennies from the EU only a fool would buy the EU tablet.

[Jase1982]

6 minutes ago, Maharg1 said:

You say we rely on exports, we will have the whole world to export to as soon as Bogo tells the EU to get stuffed.

 

28 of the 32 wealthiest countries in the world reside within the EU.  Realistically we will need the US because they are one of the few remaining countries outside of the EU that would be worth doing a deal with, but as discussed on here previously, the exact agreement we strike with the US is open to debate.  Should we still want a trade deal with the EU we would need to align our standards with them, which makes a deal with the US harder.

 

Also 80% of our economy is services.  Try selling financial services to a person in India... or try sending engineers half way round the world just because some numpty has decided trading with the countries geographically closest to us wont work anymore because of immigrants and sovereignty. 

[cjcregg]

47 minutes ago, Jase1982 said:

 

Brexit has got nothing to do with who sells what to who.  The government don't tell private companies where to trade.  This is all about the terms and conditions under which businesses operate, and without the risk of sounding like a broken record, businesses will have a choice to continue trading with us or to not.  The key issue has always been not to increase the costs to uk businesses because that would effect the amount of trade they do with the rest of the world because we have trade deals with the vast majority of wealthy countries, through the EU.  Leaving with no deal, or reduced terms would increase costs to uk businesses, which inevitably would hit our economy.

 

 

 

You're ignoring the most difficult issue in a trade agreement. It's not the tariffs or the lack of them  which is the tough part to reslove but the regulatory standards of the goods to be imported & exported that needs to be decided.

 

For example the EU banned the import of chlorine washed chicken since 1997 which of course hurts the US, and who are going to be very keen to include it in any new agreement with the UK and will use it to barter prospective concessions in exchange . As a nation we're going to first have to decided whether that is acceptable or not and that alone will be difficult enough to resolve. And that's just one product.

 

This has all the makings of a category 5 $h1t storm that will last an eternity. 

[Maharg1]

Just like all the rubbish spouted over the past 4 years, would, would, would.  What you really mean is COULD.

 

 

Edited December 15, 2019 by Maharg1