Article 50 Discussion

[brassnecked 1,570]

Yes Fletch, the popular press are not the best source of accurate information, and they fuel, mobthink The Legal system is supposed to be above politics, but yet the two have become more entwined and there is not enough engagement from the readers of DE, Heil et al.

[fletch70 654]

I wouldn't want to be a constitutional lawyer at the moment - they faced being damed if they do and damned if they don't. I remember some very anti judges front pages not that long ago with personal details splashed across the DM's front pages - we all know being a woman/BME/gay means any opinions are invalid (no we don't but you know what I am getting at).

[tobyjugg2 898]

Can anyone imagine enough Mp's voting for a deal that splits the UK?

Johnson might claim that NI is still part of the UK that border down between us is just a mirage ..

- but I really can't see Parliament voting for that.

 

anyway, surely everyone sees that its just a ploy to 'get a deal' to go into transition and remove the option to revoke/referendum, then they can trash any deal and default out.

 

Its all smoke and mirrors.

Who remembers there being a deal before - then Rabb said 'NO that isn't what we agreed at all to his own deal - when it came down to legal text,

... after Dozy Davies walked out on his own negligence.

 

 

 

[fletch70 654]

Just read on the BBC that No10 insiders are saying that BJ will ask the other leaders to veto an extension - but it is generally agreed no deal will be bad for everyone not just the UK

 

Maybe something will be decided so I cam get on with work and not spend my time looking at the news 

[tobyjugg2 898]

Hopefully a ditch will be a place of pilgrimage and historic national importance in the UK shortly ...

 

Off out with a shovel to pick a good spot and dig a trench by the side of the road about half way back from the local watering holes as an offering

 

... Pick a good spot where I might get caught short on the way back every Friday night

[tobyjugg2 898]

44 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

anyway, surely everyone sees that its just a ploy to 'get a deal' to go into transition and remove the option to revoke/referendum, then they can trash any deal and default out.

 

 

 

Don't forget ... the attorney general (Cox) who apparently advised 'misleading the Queen, Parliament and the British people as ' sounds good to me .. actually said they could ..

 

He doesn’t much like the idea of staying in the European customs union But said he would be willing to accept one if it would secure the goal of getting Britain out of the EU. 

 

BUT He followed with

“If we decided (meaningless distracting time suggestion) that we wanted to review our membership of any such customs union if we signed it – and I'm not saying we will – that's a matter for negotiation and discussion,”

[fletch70 654]

So what does this latest pronouncement from Juncker mean- is it more game playing or are we truly stuffed with my deal or no deal?

[tobyjugg2 898]

Don't know.

but I suspect its Mays deal with a UK/NI customs border in the sea and some mechanism where NI can back out of the EU alignment if there is a majority vote for it. aka no simple DUP veto/revoke.

 

.. which I believe the brexiters said was a no go when it was considered under May

including Mays 'no Britsh PM could consider it

 

Wonder of Johnson is going to claim 'its a deal' so I don't need to ask for an extension whether parliament votes for it or not?

 

 

 

[tobyjugg2 898]

Johnsons' deal apparently also agrees to the money settlement and removes a lot of the future relationship endeavours (like rights and regs alignment)

 

 

Its unlikely to be Johnsons deal or no deal

 

The EU is extremely unlikely to refuse an extension to hold a confirmatory referendum, or a general election. It seems it will resist any woolly extensions just dragging out the bull.

 

I think they are quite clearly saying 'we've had enough - sort yourself out or just P* off

 

Despite what the Brexit Bullpooers say

The EU is democratic and will always allow the people a say

The EU is NOT desperate to keep us in

The EU does not NEED us

 

 

I hear that a second referendum vote might have been on the cards - apart from Corbyns resistance

 

 

 

Wheres that picture of May and Corbyn - needs to be Corbyn propping up Johnson now.

 

 

[brassnecked 1,570]

Just outline how the EU is democratic so we all are happy TJ

[fletch70 654]

The council of ministers is made up of democratically elected ministers from the member states.

The European Parliament is made up of  democratically elected representatives of each member state and are proportional to that state's size.

 

These are the people who make, pass and agree any legislation so yes it is democratic 

https://europa.eu/european-union/eu-law/decision-making/procedures_en

 

In fact the EU is probably more democratic than our outdated FPTP system 

 

 

[tobyjugg2 898]

Very clear and concise fletch. Impressive.

 

 

No outdated Henry VIII powers to abuse either ..

 

What are Henry VIII powers?

‘Henry VIII powers’ allow the (UK) government to change an act of parliament, or even to repeal it, after it has been passed and without the need to go through parliament a second time.

 

The clauses take their name from the 1539 Statute of Proclamations, which allowed Henry VIII to rule by royal proclamation, ie by decree.

 

 

[tobyjugg2 898]

Waste of a link - no preview to attract attention

 

 

Edited October 17 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2 898]

 

[tobyjugg2 898]

and why from the horses mouth

 

 

 

[tobyjugg2 898]

So with Johnsons' 'deal:

* Actually imposing the worst case scenario extreme end backstop .. of Mays 'only in the case of all else failing backstop'

(you know - the bit Johnson and the ERG absolutely and utterly declared as Vassalage, the break up of the union, unthinkable, an abomination etc etc)

 

* Agreeing to pay the EU the settlement

(So much for giving up negotiating tools/weapons as claimed by Johnson and the ERG)

 

* Removing even the 'aspirations of a level playing field with EU rights and regs from even the none-binding political declaration

(The Bonfire of workers, food and environmental right and regulations)

 

 

1. How is this in any way a better deal than Mays

2. How can anyone who voted against Mays deal vote for this

3 How can any MP who gives a damn about their voters rights, health and well-being vote for this.

[determindator 724]

What a shame the scrutiny on Brexit Deal Vote today in the Commons was not set up for the UK people to see when the referendum was announced by Mr Cameron.

 

All what we've seen in the last few weeks could have been aired three years ago, and now left to last minute tactics.

Edited October 19 by determindator

[brassnecked 1,570]

What they all forget, is that the Withdrawal Agreement is just that, it puts in place how we interact during the transition whilst the FTA or whatever is negotiated,  that in theory is until December 2020, its the start of a process not the endpoint.  There is still danger of No Deal if they chuck this one out Benn Act notwithstanding.

[tobyjugg2 898]

There is ALWAYS the danger of a no deal

especially given Johnson being quite happy to prorogue lie and cheat to cause a default

 

.. and that also spreads into any transition (or not) where Johnson and the ERG would do their utmost to foil any agreement with the EU

 

.. as any real agreement with the EU would prevent the rights and regs bonfire they want and need to get their American corporate pals profiting from the UKs planned deregulation.

Edited October 19 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2 898]

What we should actually never forget is that the referendum result (in simple agreement/contract terms) was void within a few hours of the result ..

 

.. When the leave campaign started back-peddling/denying/reneging on pretty much all their campaign pledges and promises.

.. which has continued over the three years with pretty much all the pledges completely and utterly broken.

 

 

[honeybee13 3,897]

You mean the same people who are saying MPs don't need to see the economic impact assessments or the full text of what's proposed before voting on the deal?

 

'I'm Boris, just trust me.'

[brassnecked 1,570]

I'd rather trust the No 10 cat than Boris.

[honeybee13 3,897]

Hillary Benn has said that the Withdrawal Bill allows for a no deal Brexit at the end of next year.

 

 

[brassnecked 1,570]

No Deal is always there lurking in the background.  Any Withdrawal Agreement is only the guidelines for the Transition Period ending on 31st December 2020 whilst negotiations for the final deal take place during that period. Unless an extension is requested by June 2020, the period cannot be extended, so |No Deal is still in the mix.  As a Final Agreement could take years, the timespan is too short. EEA/EFTA best way if we are leaving.

[Jase1982 165]

Only because they for some reason they left the date of the transitional period as December 2020, which is complete nonsense.  It will take longer than that to agree a deal with the EU as well as all the other nations that have a direct relationship with the EU.

 

I don't understand why he's crying about the possibility of a no deal, but not highlighting the fact part of the withdrawal agreement is complete BS, and nonsensical.  But maybe I'm being naive.