Article 50 Discussion

[tobyjugg2]

9 hours ago, London1971 said:

What went wrong for Labour. Elections are won in the Centre. Corbyn was too much of a bitter pill to swallow even for traditional Labour voters. Labour can make some gains at the next election with a Keir Starmer like figure. Sadly for the next 5 years we have unchallenged Johnson / Tories, whoever is in charge of Labour. This is not a good thing.

 

I agree that Starmer or Thornberry could reverse some of the Corbyn generated losses, but I need to see their policies. Thornberry and the Corbyn candidates seem to be largely wind and water soundbites so far. Starmers may be too far left and risk being contaminated by Corbynism.

Still - those empty soundbites have worked well so far

[fletch70]

What baffles me is after 9 years of Tory rule people are still for it. It also baffles me how idiots can think 80K is not a good wage. It also baffles me how people who live in cities do not see the homeless caused by the Tories and the food banks or queues for food being doled out by charities and not see Britain is broken. 

 

It seems the Labour Party is the home of the academic middle class (Tory supporters within academia are few and far between). Is it this that leads to a gulf with the less well off who see academics and their ilk as being part of the metropolitan elite? 

 

With regard to Starmer, it seems he was silenced during the election because he was off message- maybe his message will be acceptable.

 

If Johnson wants to ensure a permanent Tory Government he should just let Scotland go- I do not want that but it would ensure the majority 

[London1971]

1 hour ago, fletch70 said:

What baffles me is after 9 years of Tory rule people are still for it. It also baffles me how idiots can think 80K is not a good wage. It also baffles me how people who live in cities do not see the homeless caused by the Tories and the food banks or queues for food being doled out by charities and not see Britain is broken. 

 

It seems the Labour Party is the home of the academic middle class (Tory supporters within academia are few and far between). Is it this that leads to a gulf with the less well off who see academics and their ilk as being part of the metropolitan elite? 

 

With regard to Starmer, it seems he was silenced during the election because he was off message- maybe his message will be acceptable.

 

If Johnson wants to ensure a permanent Tory Government he should just let Scotland go- I do not want that but it would ensure the majority 

 

Some great information resources available on foodbanks but this country was very late joining that game, many European countries have far more than  than we do and have had since way before 2010.  I lived in Canada for much of the mid to late 00's, Foodbanks were everywhere, our kids kindergarten were always doing various collections for one or another. In fact Canada has by far the worst food insecurity in the Western world, not that we'd ever hear that on UK news.

 

My point? Yup the Tories aren't great, but it's not just them, it's a problem in every OECD Country, hunger, homelessness, just take a Eurostar to Paris and be shocked how many are on the streets.  People aren't necessarily stupid and can see what goes on everywhere.

[fletch70]

I have to disagree about the levels of homelessness being just as bad everywhere else. One report from 2015 estimates within Europe we have the second highest percentage homelessness with the Czech Republic being worse. 
 

You compare us against North America yet we are not North American even though with the Tories in power we are moving to the neo liberal welfare state as opposed to a social democratic one. 

As for the OECD , don’t get me started. Their plans and reports about pay and working conditions are very wishy  washy 

 

[tobyjugg2]

perhaps strangely to some,

Corbyn was never a working class hero, never interested in civil rights or democracy except when he used it as a weapon to accuse others and it was always applied to others, never himself.

 

... but take a look in more detail at Starmer, beyond the smart suites and 'Sir'

the guy is a true social democrat and solid civil rights champion, albeit a little too left for me.

 

Shame that many of his genuine policies will now be 'browned' by corbyn.

 

Perhaps a partnership - Starmer and Thornberry might straddle the middle ground well while retaining acheivable left goals.

 

Center/right would likely be almost (but not that close) as toxic to the current party as corbynism has been,

although I dont doubt that slightly right of center would have won against May or Johnson

 

 

 

[London1971]

18 minutes ago, fletch70 said:

I have to disagree about the levels of homelessness being just as bad everywhere else. One report from 2015 estimates within Europe we have the second highest percentage homelessness with the Czech Republic being worse. 
 

You compare us against North America yet we are not North American even though with the Tories in power we are moving to the neo liberal welfare state as opposed to a social democratic one. 

As for the OECD , don’t get me started. Their plans and reports about pay and working conditions are very wishy  washy 

 

https://twitter.com/FEANTSA/status/1109111447546744832/photo/1

 

Good figures here, above. The main takeaway is look at how homelessness is counted, for example some countries it's just Rough sleepers, others it includes temporary accommodation.  However, Germany and France have and have for many years had a far bigger problem than us. I'm not saying that we shouldn't be ashamed of our issue but it's incorrect to assume we are any worse.

 

Visit Berlin, or Paris,  see whole families on the Street.

 

It is also incorrect to lump Canada in with the US. Canada is far more similar to the UK or an EU Country.  Drive across the Quebec / New York border like I used to do on a regular basis to see the third world style shacks that suddenly appear at the side of the Roads on the American side.

[fletch70]

The problem is, as you say, how the numbers are calculated. I am looking at rough sleepers and people who queue up for soup kitchens. 
 

Admittedly it’s been a couple of years since I was in Paris but I was in Berlin 12 months ago and do not recognise your descriptions. I was in Prague 2years ago and saw many rough sleepers .

 

Currently in Birmingham , whichever route I take to New St station in a morning I will probably see 10 people sleeping rough, all that in a tiny area.

 

I am not into saying well they are worse than us so it doesn’t matter, it has been getting worse now for several years in the uk and the state do nothing about it. There is a narrative out there which says give them a hone and they will only ruin it-whoever they are.

 

I might as well say, he’s only a little bit dead. 

[fletch70]

Sorry I know it’s wiki but here you go 

 

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_homeless_population

 

 

 

https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-45983897

Edited January 3, 2020 by fletch70

[Maharg1]

On 16/12/2019 at 08:43, tobyjugg2 said:

 

@Maharg1

Still waiting for you to define some real world benefits to brexit,

or any of those 'grate' international trade deals you carp on about without any real world references.

 

Go for it ...

 

 

I will match you one for one if you can come up with any 'proven' pitfalls of leaving - over to you tj

[fletch70]

1 hour ago, Maharg1 said:

I will match you one for one if you can come up with any 'proven' pitfalls of leaving - over to you tj

There goes a response of a person without a scooby 

[Maharg1]

You say that but you have not shown one single proof of anything you claim.  You call on all the others multiple time for proof but

you yourself never offers any proof of anything.

 

Your above answer shows to me that you have no reason to remain and can show no benefits of remaining.

[fletch70]

Well we don’t know the terms yet but here are a few benefits

 

Access to the single market without tariffs 

Keeping the Good Friday agreement alive 

Maintaining workers rights 

Maintaining levels of animal husbandry 

Letting people visit mainland Europe without needing a visa 

Keeping the US out of our health service

Maintaining the post war peace 

[fletch70]

Oh and did I mention, protecting the union 

[Maharg1]

Access to the single market without tariffs  - You don't know that we wont get that.

Keeping the Good Friday agreement alive  - That has nothing to do with the EU

Maintaining workers rights  - Already agreed and stated that 'all' rights etc would be taken into UK law and debated one at a time 

Maintaining levels of animal husbandry  - No reason why that should change and who says it will?

Letting people visit mainland Europe without needing a visa  - Not required if you are a tourist

Keeping the US out of our health service - Not defined enough what you mean

Maintaining the post war peace  - What, someone is going to declare war on us or an EU country when we leave?

 

[Jase1982]

The biggest one for me is that the UK lose EU funding.  In reality we pay really little for access to the single market, and there's no guarantee that the UK government will be able to replace the lost funding.

 

Also, as member of the biggest trading bloc in the world we have far more influence than being outside.  Anyone that thinks we can achieve better "deals" outside of the bloc is skidding themselves.  As a member we see heads and shoulders with the US in terms of GDP, outside of it we are far smaller.

 

Tariffs will make things more expensive, and I can't see there being at least a small amount of disruption and tariffs somewhere unless we stay loosely tied to the EU, or we have some sort of Norway type deal.  In which case we'd still have to pay in, and follow some EU rules.  Rendering the whole process completely pointless..

 

If we don't have some sort of customs agreement, the cost for the new customs forms will cost more than EU membership

[Maharg1]

10 minutes ago, Jase1982 said:

The biggest one for me is that the UK lose EU funding.  

We pay in more than we get back which is obvious really as how else is the maintenance and wages of the non-elected going to be paid

[unclebulgaria67]

Transition period to be extended beyond 31/12/2020 ?

 

Actual date of UK independence ?

 

Once the UK does exit the EU transition period and is trading under the new agreement, will the UK be truly independent ?

 

How many trade deals EU and with other countries will require foreign Courts to have equal jurisdiction on trade disputes, human rights, consumer protection etc ?

 

 

[fletch70]

As I said there is no agreement so we don’t know for certain 

 

But the EU was talking about visas for tourists from non eu countries 

 

As for workers rights- in the EU they can not be changed. Outside the EU they can be, look at some of the suggestions Raab made.

 

If we join the low regulatory low tax economy supported by some these things will happen.

 

Now provide 1 reason to leave 

[tobyjugg2]

Well the UK government is clearly defining some changes for starters:

 

 

https://www.gov.uk/prepare-export-from-uk-after-brexit

 

 

Make sure your business has an EORI number that starts with GB

You'll need an Economic Operator Registration and Identification (EORI) number starting with GB to continue exporting goods.

 

Check your importer has an EU EORI number

Your importer will need an EU EORI number.

You'll need to get an EU EORI number if you're exporting to your own business within the EU. You can get one from the customs authority in any EU country.

 

Check the rate of tax and duty for your goods

Your importer will need to pay tax and duty on your goods after Brexit. This will depend on the classification of the goods.

 

 

Decide who will make the export declarations

You can hire someone to deal with customs for you, or you can do it yourself.

 

 

Decide if you want to export your goods using transit

You may be able to use the Common Transit Convention (CTC) to simplify how your goods pass through customs and when your importer pays customs duties.

 

 

Check what you need to do for the type of goods you export

There might be other things you need to do, depending on what you're exporting.

1. Check if the rules about licences and certificates for your type of goods will change
2. Check the rules for exporting alcohol, tobacco and certain oils
3. Check the rules for exporting controlled goods like firearms
4. Check the labelling and marketing standards for exporting food, plant seeds and manufactured goods

 

 

Find out how changes to VAT will affect you

1. Find out how you'll claim VAT refunds from EU countries
2. Find out how you'll pay VAT if you sell digital services to EU customers

 

 

 

Theres a few defined by Johnsons government itself.

Your turn

 

[Maharg1]

 

 

It's a protectionist trading bloc

 

They seriously misallocates resources - 40% goes to farmers but only 1% of GDP is attributable to agriculture

 

It's a political project that is fundamentally anti-democratic As made clear by Jean Monnet -

"Europes nations should be guided towards the super-state without their people understanding what

is happening. This can be accomplished by successive steps each disguised as having an economic purpose but which will eventually

and irreversibly lead to federation"

 

The folly of the introduction of the euro 

 

The inadvertent encouragement of regional separatist movement to develop in member states

 

An increasing Euroscepticism - Czech Republic, Hungary, Poland and Slovakia is challenging the authority of Burssels by refusing

to accept migrant quotas imposed by Brussels

 

Massive corruption in the EU

This is well shown by the fact that the EUs accounts have not been approved for the last 20 years by the EU chief auditor - there is

around €100bn not accounted for.

It is governed by unelected bureaucrats and judges rather than elected politicians.

 

European courts over-ruling UK courts - Everything is prohibited unless it is permitted which requires constant appeals to the ECJ

to grant permission.  That contrasts with the English common law where everything is permitted unless it is prohibited.  The allowing us

to revoke article 50 shows clearly that the ECJ is a political court and not a neutral interpreter of law.

 

Bringing the UK defence policy under EU control that undermines Nato and our intelligence and security alliance with the US, Canada, Australia and

New Zealand

 

Tarrifs - The customs union which all member states belong imposes more than 13,000 tariffs on imported goods meaning EU members pay on

average 17% above world prices for food.

The Financial Times says that the single market is a giant economic non-event for both the EU and the UK.

The EU has weaponised trade. People in the EU are prevented from entering into voluntary trading agreements with anyone outside the EU

without the consent of unelected bureaucrats in Brussels.

 

•  

[Maharg1]

Minimum alcohol price in Scotland breaches EU law, court rules

The European court has ruled that the Scottish government’s plan to impose a blanket minimum price for alcohol is in breach of EU free-trade laws.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/23/minimum-alcohol-price-in-scotland-could-breach-eu-law-court-rules

 

 

 

[Maharg1]

Since 1980, the EU has firmly established itself as the world’s slowest growing region, with widespread economic stagnation. For more than a quarter of a century, the EU’s economic growth has fallen well below that of the UK and the rest of the industrialised world. 

[brassnecked]

51 minutes ago, Maharg1 said:

Minimum alcohol price in Scotland breaches EU law, court rules

The European court has ruled that the Scottish government’s plan to impose a blanket minimum price for alcohol is in breach of EU free-trade laws.

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2015/dec/23/minimum-alcohol-price-in-scotland-could-breach-eu-law-court-rules

 

 

 

Well that one is probably why the numbskulls in Bae caerdydd havent implemented it in wales yet, was supposed to be in by now.

[Maharg1]

Scotland said they wanted to do it to stop the increase in drunkenness and suicide attributed to alcohol so does

that mean the EU doesn't give a toss about the people of Scotland.

[brassnecked]

Probably breaches some arcane restraint Of trade Directive to protect  winemekers or something.