Article 50 Discussion

[Jase1982]

2 hours ago, Maharg1 said:

 

See, you just don't like opposition.  How can it be a good thread if everyone on here is of the same ilk.

I don't think moderators should get involved at all on threads like this.  They change it to how they want it and the proof is in tobyjugg signature

 

"Please don't assume what you see here is what I wrote - At least some of my posts HAVE been edited without my knowledge or agreement - or anything showing people they have been amended "

 

When a moderator with a different political view deliberately deletes sections to change the meaning of a post, that is wrong especially if they do

it and don't acknowledge the fact.  Promoting your view by stealth is wrong.

 

 

It's not the opposition to any viewpoint that is the issue.  It's the fact you seem unable to debate sensibly, post things which we know aren't true (and have been discussed numerous times on this thread and across the internet), and you're unable to back what you say up with anything credible.

 

I don't think anyone here is of the same "ilk" ... There have been a few different viewpoints expressed.  I wouldn't describe us all as completely left, but some of the things that have been put to you have been blanketed as "leftist" rubbish by you.  How would you feel if we just called you a right wing moron?

[Maharg1]

It's the general untruths in this thread that brought me into in the first place.

 

[tobyjugg2]

1 hour ago, Maharg1 said:

It's the general untruths in this thread that brought me into in the first place.

 

 

Don't you mean you brought most of the general untruths to this thread,

at least Jases' are just in justifying Corbyn, and Fletchs' seem solely in excusing Corbyn, and both are probably largely just a bit 'mistaken' through wishful thinking

 

You on the other hand seem to thrive on ..it.

 

 

Still waiting for some real world benefit from Brexit, and especially something that isn't just undoing a bit of the years of Tory austerity - which has nothing to do with Brexit

 

Edited January 2, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[Jase1982]

1 hour ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

Don't you mean you brought most of the general untruths to this thread,

at least Jases' are just in justifying Corbyn, and Fletchs' seem solely in excusing Corbyn, and both are probably largely just a bit 'mistaken' through wishful thinking

 

 

 

Dont drag me into this I gave my opinion on what I thought went wrong for Labour and where they were right.  Hardly spreading lies like Mahrag does

[fletch70]

There are very few if any absolute Truths- we construct meanings to our reality .

 

My views on Corbyn are complex, I believe his vision of taking some sectors back into public ownership were sound but if he had campaigned to remain back in 2016 I think we would not be in this mess now. I also understand but disagree with the Lexit argument although who knows what may happen if we leave with no deal .  I am not excusing Corbyn but I do try and understand what he was up against- different factions in the party and in the country.

 

What has been indefensible is the way the lies told by the leave campaign were not challenged, for example Turkey.

 

Labour decided to fight the election on what is wrong with the country which turned out to be a massive mistake IMO although I wonder what Len McCluskey is saying now? The Tories fought and won on a very good strap line- helped of course by the Brexit Party's decision to only stand in certain seats- that is a complete subversion of democracy, especially if they claim to want P.R.

 

There is a long way to go until we know what our future relationship with the EU and the rest of the world 

 

It was wrong of remainers to say all Brexiters were racist and/or stupid although judging by posts of facebook and youtube and other social media it seems some are. That 'some' may be a few , may be many but I think we have all heard some stories about people almost expecting mass deportations. 

 

What is done is done but we must keep up the pressure - the results of local elections this year may, just may influence what happens. 

 

Finally, and this is a circle I can not square- Labour are vilified for  antisemitism although they have had an enquiry and removed people from the party yet it seems ok for the Tories to be accused of Islamophobia, promise an enquiry  and then drop it.

[London1971]

What went wrong for Labour. Elections are won in the Centre. Corbyn was too much of a bitter pill to swallow even for traditional Labour voters. Labour can make some gains at the next election with a Keir Starmer like figure. Sadly for the next 5 years we have unchallenged Johnson / Tories, whoever is in charge of Labour. This is not a good thing.

[fletch70]

21 minutes ago, London1971 said:

What went wrong for Labour. Elections are won in the Centre. Corbyn was too much of a bitter pill to swallow even for traditional Labour voters. Labour can make some gains at the next election with a Keir Starmer like figure. Sadly for the next 5 years we have unchallenged Johnson / Tories, whoever is in charge of Labour. This is not a good thing.

I think to some extent you are correct although it has to be more complex than that. Johnson seems hardly one nation centrist conservative. I guess only time will tell as why shouldn’t he change, he has done it so often before. Hopefully the Tories will get a bad local election result although unless labour get a move on to replace Corbyn it becomes less likely

[London1971]

14 minutes ago, fletch70 said:

I think to some extent you are correct although it has to be more complex than that. Johnson seems hardly one nation centrist conservative. I guess only time will tell as why shouldn’t he change, he has done it so often before. Hopefully the Tories will get a bad local election result although unless labour get a move on to replace Corbyn it becomes less likely

 

Hard to believe that he's still in place after they took such a beating. That is a bad sign.

[fletch70]

25 minutes ago, London1971 said:

 

Hard to believe that he's still in place after they took such a beating. That is a bad sign.

I agree. I think they have had time to reflect. At the very least they should announce the date of an election for a new leader. 

[tobyjugg2]

I have absolutely no doubts whatsoever that its long past time corbyn was gone.

For the country and that was at least 2 years ago - although the May issue clouded the issue regarding the Party.

There are no excuses whatsoever now.

 

 

Corbyn will be seen as trying to ensure nothing changes, FURTHER damaging the party and ALL the potential replacements in the process, especially his 'chosen ones'.

How anyone with any claim to decency or 'listening to the people' and who generated such a historic defeat on labour,

even if it weren't against such lowlifes as johnson and crew,

can think he should do anything except immediately resign and get out of the way would be beyond my ken - if it weren't for the simple fact of his clear fanatical mindset.

 

He should have immediately resigned and removed himself from any interference in the replacement process.

That he hasn't and wont will undoubtedly simply confirm that he and his left ilk are exactly what is NOT needed.

 

 

I could dismantle his 'tactics' but those tactics he implemented clearly demonstrate to me that he is entirely unsuitable as anything other than a local MP, and he should be an independent one at that.

He shows no party loyalty whatsoever - and NEVER has.

 

 

[Jase1982]

27 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

.

He shows no party loyalty whatsoever - and NEVER has.

 

 

 

Surely that's contradictory though?  You've spent a long time demonising the man for supposedly becoming this sort of dictator, and trying to get thr party to implement his way and only his way.  Now you expect him to tow the party line and to have followed any leader regardless of policy?

 

Personally I'd rather have an MP that votes in a way they feel morally comfortable with, and gsd you considered all the times he voted against the Labour party he might have been on to something?  The Iraq war for example.  Considering how much we now know New Labour were just a continuation of Thatcherism that so many people voted against in the blind belief Tony Blair offered anything different.  Maybe Jermy Corbyn represents what Laboir should stand for... instead of all this fakery we've been blessed with.

[tobyjugg2]

9 minutes ago, Jase1982 said:

 

Surely that's contradictory though?  You've spent a long time demonising the man for supposedly becoming this sort of dictator, and trying to get thr party to implement his way and only his way. 

 

 

Quote

Now you expect him to tow the party line and to have followed any leader regardless of policy?

 

 

 

No, I don't expect him to do that at all. Read my prior posts, including my response to YOUR claim that he would resign straight away even if they just didn't prevent a majority wasn't it? - do I need to quote ... dont think it was fletch - he isn't that daft/deluded.

 

 

I simply asked how any person with even half a claim to decency or listening to the people could do what he is doing.

- but what he IS doing IS exactly what a fanatical tin pot dictator would do though isnt it ...

 

 

9 minutes ago, Jase1982 said:

 

and gsd you considered all the times he voted against the Labour party he might have been on to something? 

 

 

Like I said and you confirm - he should be an independent and has shown NO party loyalty whatsoever - ever.

On to a fact - yes: Labour - he isn't.

Shame Labour didn't cotton on.

 

 

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

On 12/12/2019 at 15:23, Jase1982 said:

 

He already came out and confirmed john McDonnell would take over temporarily if they lost

 

On 13/12/2019 at 07:23, tobyjugg2 said:

 

 

So he will pass power on to his number one man who entirely supports his policies eh?

Maybe - but Even thats doubtful

 

Whats he actually saying? - he wont lead labour into the next election ... in 6 years .... clinging on and on and on

 

 

 

Mind you, at least Corbyn has got his Leave 'win' to fall back on ...

Independent Scotland and a  united Ireland next - both in the EU

 

 

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

Then of course, the corbynistas started attacking mcdonnell  and anyone else as the 'reason' the loss wasn't corbyns fault didn't they

.. apparently a large part because he said he would personally campaign for Remain

and in saying he would do so he thereby 'undermined' the lifelong treacherous serial underminer eurosceptic corbyn

Edited January 3, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[Jase1982]

21 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

 

 

No, I don't expect him to do that at all. Read my prior posts, including my response to YOUR claim that he would resign straight away even if they just didn't prevent a majority wasn't it? - do I need to quote ... dont think it was fletch - he isn't that daft/deluded.

 

 

Yes, I read that quote somewhere about John Mcdonnell stepping up, and I am too surprised that he hasn't gone.  I thoroughly expected him to go the day after the election.  Especially considering the result, and I agree with you that he should go.

 

I

23 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

Like I said and you confirm - he should be an independent and has shown NO party loyalty whatsoever - ever.

On to a fact - yes: Labour - he isn't.

Shame Labour didn't cotton on.

 

 

I'm not getting into my thoughts on Labour, where they went wrong, and what was correct again ... Been there, and I'm not going to change your mind.

 

I was just making the point that party politics kind of require a defacto dictator because of the whipping system, and you can't have it both ways.  Demonise him for imposing his vision of where Labour should be headed - Right or wrong.  Yet, criticise him for voting against the party line when it went against his conscience.

 

[tobyjugg2]

32 minutes ago, Jase1982 said:

 

Yes, I read that quote somewhere about John Mcdonnell stepping up, and I am too surprised that he hasn't gone.  I thoroughly expected him to go the day after the election.  Especially considering the result, and I agree with you that he should go.

 

So who has demonstrated they were reading him correctly ...

and not just in that single point?

As I said - I had no doubts whatsoever.

 

Now I wouldn't be surprised at all if Corbyn is considering trying to run again ... part of the reason for the delays

 

 

Starmer is about the furthest left that possibly wouldn't completely destroy Labour ... possibly.

He's come along quite well as a statesman in the last few years.

 

Still wouldn't be a first choice for me, but might be an acceptable one.

 

 

 

Corbyn incontinence candidates would almost certainly oversee the dissolution of labour as a force.

 

 

[Jase1982]

1 hour ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

Now I wouldn't be surprised at all if Corbyn is considering trying to run again ... part of the reason for the delays

 

 

That would be absolutely mental to me, but there aren't many options as far as I can see.  If a man that has delivered Labour's worse performance since 1935 can still run for leadership and possibly win it, then heaven help us.

 

1 hour ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

Starmer is about the furthest left that possibly wouldn't completely destroy Labour ... possibly.

He's come along quite well as a statesman in the last few years.

 

 

I couldn't offer any opinion on who Corbyn's successor should be.  As I've said earlier, I think the class system has shifted in this country, and Corbyn's Labour now represent the working poor.  How do they attempt to win votes from working Tory voters that may have done alright and are still clawing their way out of the swap in the hope that work is the route to the land of milk and honey.  How do they win back working Tory voters that are under the misguided illusion that Conservatives will provide them with much better jobs because of this crazy notion that they're much better with the economy, which equals better prospects.  I have no doubt Boris will lie through his teeth, and bribe people in the North to win their affection.  The big question will be in five years what will Tory Britain look like?

 

Oh, and just to add, shock horror - the mail misguided voters over one of Labour's policies.  The real gut punch is that I had a conversation with someone who had shared the story on Facebook and were convinced Labour are looking to screw all the young voters over.  I'd pay real money to see some stats on how many retractions the Guardian are forced to make?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/dec/09/ipso-rebukes-mail-on-sunday-over-labour-movers-tax-claim

 

[fletch70]

Oh you don't want to believe a word that nasty commie rag says 

[tobyjugg2]

2 hours ago, Jase1982 said:

 

and Corbyn's Labour now represent the working poor.

 

Really?

- care to support that with something concrete?

 

 

 

2 hours ago, Jase1982 said:

 

https://www.theguardian.com/media/2019/dec/09/ipso-rebukes-mail-on-sunday-over-labour-movers-tax-claim

 

 

Well I'd not read that and would have checked

Thats just preaching to the converted.

[Jase1982]

9 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

Really?

- care to support that with something concrete?

.

 

literally every policy they had?  Their attack on billionaires, and basically anyone who had money.  Their slogan of 'for the many' was well wide of the mark because they failed to take into consideration that a by product of capitalism's creation of class systems was that the old working class didn't exist anymore and that working people also have money these days.  I've said on here before that socialism and the desire to even out the playing field inevitably means taking things from people... that's a conundrum I dont think socialism has an answer for, unless there's a chaotic situation that brings capitalism down.  But then we end up discussing violent revolutions.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Jase1982

[tobyjugg2]

Some assumptions there (again) which the limited stats from the vote profiles simply don't support

 

Saying you are the champion of the working poor,  and dishing out slogans doesn't make it real - Johnson has always said the same,

and with the actual implementation of an increase in minimum wage, will have delivered more than Corbynite Labour has.

Simple fact.

 

You wishing it was real doesn't make it real anymore than maharg1s horsecrap contains any gold nuggets in it.

 

Edited January 3, 2020 by tobyjugg2

[Jase1982]

22 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

Some assumptions there (again) which the limited stats from the vote profiles simply don't support

 

Which were?  I'm only calling their policies as I saw them.

 

22 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

Saying you are the champion of the working poor,  and dishing out slogans doesn't make it real - Johnson has always said the same,

and with the actual implementation of an increase in minimum wage, will have delivered more than Corbynite Labour has.

Simple fact.

 

 

Exactly my point.  They aimed for the working poor and missed the target because working class isn't working class anymore.

 

That's absolute nonsense about Johnson and the living wage or whatever they want to call it.  The national living wage should be nearer 11 quid.  It's a hollow sentiment to appease Labour voters .... its like a king just throwing scraps of bread at all the peasants.  Can anyone take that increase seriously?

Edited January 3, 2020 by Jase1982

[tobyjugg2]

blunter then

 

Saying these are the policies you working poor should vote for, and if you don't you simply aren't working poor,

doesn't make anyone a champion of anyone or anything but themselves.

 

and that is precisely what Corbynism is.

 

 

 

 

 

[Maharg1]

 

You wishing it was real doesn't make it real anymore than maharg1s horsecrap has gold in it.

 

I can say these things because I was right, my party won and we are leaving the EU :)

[Maharg1]

I can't see why you are continuing with this, it's done, it's over, the best man won.

Edited January 3, 2020 by Maharg1