Article 50 Discussion

[Maharg1]

* Corbyn and his 100,000 supporters are right

- everyone else is wrong and they just need to be 'convinced' to get it right (anyone seeing the issues in 'Communist China? with 're-education')

 

I know someone who post on this thread who thinks the exact same thing - hello tobyjugg

Edited December 27, 2019 by Maharg1

[tobyjugg2]

On 24/12/2019 at 17:03, Jase1982 said:

 

 

 

I'm starting to sound like a broken record now but I'm convinced the Tories deliberately ran our industry down and pushed us towards a low wage, low skilled economy in order to create Tory voters because the original working class aren't working class anymore. 

 

 

So the Tories create more traditional labour voters, some might say the birth heart and soul of the labour party, to destroy the Labour party eh?

 

So Post Blairite labour isnt the party of the workers then?

Well, Many of them seem to agree

 

 

 

 

 

 

On 24/12/2019 at 17:25, tobyjugg2 said:

Basic human nature

 

You have a country of a million people that goes communist

To each as they need from each as they are able

 

1. Immediately some will swing the lead,

2 . then others will see them getting away with it, and start saying why should they work hard when those working less are sitting at home enjoying the fruits more - and either work less or become disaffected dissidents who say the system is unfair.

3. some mechanism has to be put in place to force the lazy ones to work with some elite deciding

 

- Dictatorship in three easy steps,

 

 

On 24/12/2019 at 17:55, Jase1982 said:

 

Your point two assumes market forces are still prevalent, and that currency is the primary motivator for all humans. 

 

What utter carp.

My example specifically does NOT mention or refer money, inflation or market forces. The fruits were literally that - food to eat and time with the family at others work effort 'expense'

 

 

 

and I notice you both avoid the Corbyn/Corbinista issues as well you might.

Honest - horse crap

Inclusive - Horse crap

For the people - Horse crap - as defined by the people

 

Interesting that his replacements (even the leftie ones apart from his two protege's) are already talking about being 'more inclusive' 'listen to the party members' etc

 

I get onto the other left spin if necessary

 

 

 

Corbyn and his ilk needs to be GONE

He and his ilk arn't even seen by the electorate, or even Labour heartland people, as the lessor of two evils, and while he is there in body or spirit, we will be stuck with the other evil.

 

- no doubt you pair think those people are wrong and just need 're-educating' - well they clearly think you are wrong and have shown you what you can do with your indoctrination.

[honeybee13]

I was interested in this article the other day about Acorn who are organising locally to try and sort out social problems without politicians.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/dec/22/community-union-acorn-reports-glut-of-applications

[fletch70]

TJ 

By you two, do you mean Jase and myself? 
 

If so, I am sure we don’t have identical ideas; after all I could walk into them in the street and not know.

 

For the record, I believe most of the policies in the labour manifesto were sound, denationalisation of water , taking rail back into public hands - I assume that would be a slow process as franchises came up for renewal. 
 

Education and health , who can argue and not setting artificial limits on migration, well I didn’t see anything to say it wouldn’t be managed. 
 

I worry as I always have about letting membership decide the leader as that can be and is manipulated. I see nothing intrinsically wrong with MPs having to be reselected at each election. I know of one ex Tory MP who would have been deselected because she did her job and stood up for what she believed as opposed to the Tory coffin dodgers who ran that area. 
 

Just to note, your misquote of from each according to ability, seems to me to be some sort of social contract so if you are able you work and get an income. If you swing the lead you don’t and if you are unable to work you still get an income. 
 

I think you also misrepresented what Jase said in that I also agree Thatcher destroyed any industrial base we had and hurt the unions. This has led to low skill, precarious jobs. Also she fooled many in social housing into thinking they were middle class when they bought their homes, also artificially boosting the economy when they released equity ( because of discounts up to 70%) and went on a spending spree.

 

I have no idea how old you are but I have lived through the 70s and 80s , can remember Richard Coles when he was a pop star and saw the convoys of police driving to pits to take on the NUM. 

.

[fletch70]

1 hour ago, honeybee13 said:

I was interested in this article the other day about Acorn who are organising locally to try and sort out social problems without politicians.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/society/2019/dec/22/community-union-acorn-reports-glut-of-applications

I love the thought of cooperation like this. Maybe we will take a leaf out of those pesky French and start humanitarian direct action. ‘Power to the People’ 

[Jase1982]

18 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

 

So the Tories create more traditional labour voters, some might say the birth heart and soul of the labour party, to destroy the Labour party eh?

 

So Post Blairite labour isnt the party of the workers then?

Well, Many of them seem to agree

 

My point was that working class isn't working class anymore.  Work has been totally changed compared to what it was, where there's less industry.  People just want jobs, and the Tories promise that to them.  Gone are the days of heavy industry and real proper jobs.

 

The class system that capitalism creates has shifted over the last 30 years.  Post blairite Labour (as you call them) now represent the working poor, and people that struggle to get by.  The underclass that privatisation amongst other things has created.

 

2 hours ago, tobyjugg2 said:

What utter carp.

My example specifically does NOT mention or refer money, inflation or market forces. The fruits were literally that - food to eat and time with the family at others work effort 'expense'

 

 

The point is that what I'm talking about would eradicate any notion of anything being completed at the expense of other peoples efforts.  What people get in and what they get back are largely determined by market forces, which are often grossly unequal, and prioritise things that are only of benefit to that individual market.  You can't have this discussion without referring to money because it is capitalism.

[tobyjugg2]

2 hours ago, Jase1982 said:

The point is that what I'm talking about would eradicate any notion of anything being completed at the expense of other peoples efforts.  What people get in and what they get back are largely determined by market forces, which are often grossly unequal, and prioritise things that are only of benefit to that individual market.  You can't have this discussion without referring to money because it is capitalism.

 

No, you were completely misrepresenting my example, which you have still not answered, just like with the corbyn issues.

 

'eradicate any notion of anything being completed at the expense of other peoples efforts'

- You are spouting fantastical but meaningless drivel.

 

 

Give a practical example rather than high faluting nonsense. Start by addressing the inherent issues I raised in the example (of actual situations) I refered

The world isnt changed by avoiding.

 

 

 

 

 

[Jase1982]

13 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

No, you were completely misrepresenting my example, which you have still not answered, just like with the corbyn issues.

 

'eradicate any notion of anything being completed at the expense of other peoples efforts'

- You are spouting fantastical but meaningless drivel.

 

 

Give a practical example rather than high faluting nonsense. Start by addressing the inherent issues I raised in the example (of actual situations) I refered

The world isnt changed by avoiding.

 

 

 

 

 

 

I think the only one who is misrepresenting anything is you, quickly followed by an anti corbyn rant about how he's to blame for all labour's problems.  Conveniently ignoring past, present and future events... I really struggle to connect with people in this country who seem unable to think about any inter connecting series of events in order to properly understand the results.  It's almost like causality doesn't exist.

 

In terms of practical examples; I dont need to give any.  Just like Marx, I'm highlighting problems to do with capitalism (obviously not comparing myself to Marx, although I think it's interesting that people are still coming to the same conclusions as he did over 100 years after his death).

 

The way I look at it is that if you see something that is broken, do you sit there and say oh well, we've got no practical product that does the job better, so we'll just accept this product as it is.  We're more likely to produce something that does the job better, build on it, and eventually have something that is so much more superior as that is the definition of capitalism. 

 

It's actually a massive irony that in a "free" market capitalist world we live in that relies on expansion and evolution, we are unable to expand and improve the system of governance we have.  Conservatism exists to conserve the existing power structures and build on their own wealth and power, so another lie is that they are progressive.  They are not.  The left are.  Hence why we come up with issues specifically to do with the systems we use and possible resolutions for them.  Conservatism just tells people socialism is bad and socialists are lazy.  It tells people that communists are out to kill them in their beds, and are sneaky.  All simple slogans that keep us all fixed in the same state of flux; never developing past point A.  All that's happening is that the wealth of the 1% is developing to such a point that when the asteroid finally hits earth they'll all have left and be living on mars, whilst the rest of us will be sat here wallowing in our own mess as we burn to death.

[tobyjugg2]

48 minutes ago, Jase1982 said:

 I really struggle to connect with people in this country who seem unable to think about any inter connecting series of events in order to properly understand the results.  It's almost like causality doesn't exist.

 

You mean like Blair leading - Labour wins

 

Wrong Milliband - Labour loses

 

Even further left to Corbyn - and labour has arguably the biggest loss of support in its history

 

 

50 minutes ago, Jase1982 said:

In terms of practical examples; I dont need to give any. 

 

.... explicative x 10

 

 

 

50 minutes ago, Jase1982 said:

 Just like Marx, I'm highlighting problems to do with capitalism

 

 

 

Like I said.

Student soap-boxer with only whines, never a practical win.

 

 

Come back when you have something practical and workable or at least something more than student fantasy.

 

You loons make the Brexit claims seem like a portrait of reality,

and in doing so have made Brexit and a Johnson/ERG government a reality.

 

Idiots.

 

[Jase1982]

2 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

Idiots.

 

 

I'll tell you what mate, I don't know what to say.  If thinking about stuff makes me an idiot then I'm an idiot.  You are the epitome of someone who doesn't like change.  If you believe your extreme narrative - I actually believe the current narrative is extreme because it's extreme to have one entrenched position, and not to consider other possibilities.  I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just pointing out where there are issues and where possible solutions lie.  The solutions may not be complete or correct, but others may build on them.  Surely that's what humanity should be great at - building on thoughts, expanding on them and collectively reaching a resolution.  Why do we accept so blindly that what we have is all that is possible, and people suffering is a necessary evil of the capitalist wheel.

[tobyjugg2]

1 hour ago, Jase1982 said:

In terms of practical examples; I dont need to give any.  Just like Marx, I'm highlighting problems to do with capitalism

 

[Maharg1]

7 minutes ago, Jase1982 said:

 

I'll tell you what mate, I don't know what to say.  If thinking about stuff makes me an idiot then I'm an idiot.  You are the epitome of someone who doesn't like change.  If you believe your extreme narrative - I actually believe the current narrative is extreme because it's extreme to have one entrenched position, and not to consider other possibilities.  I'm not saying I'm right, I'm just pointing out where there are issues and where possible solutions lie.  The solutions may not be complete or correct, but others may build on them.  Surely that's what humanity should be great at - building on thoughts, expanding on them and collectively reaching a resolution.  Why do we accept so blindly that what we have is all that is possible, and people suffering is a necessary evil of the capitalist wheel.

You won't win, if you say something that he don't like he will just fling abuse at you, he hates being caught out and that happens all the time.

[Peterbard]

3 minutes ago, Maharg1 said:

You won't win, if you say something that he don't like he will just fling abuse at you, he hates being caught out and that happens all the time.

Amen to that.

[determindator]

Relating to Mrs T's quote above, It was other peoples' money who bailed out the banks. 

[tobyjugg2]

 

Careful - that was a practical example

 

Doesn't count to the nuts.

 

 

You should have said the Corbyn tooth fairies left the money

.. or just good riddance to money, trade you a turnip for an apple

- and be called a capitalist ...

Edited December 27, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[unclebulgaria67]

Lets keep it civil please.

 

What is absolutely certain, is that with a Government with more than a working majority, we cannot afford to have the main opposition party in a divided situation, where they are unable to hold Government to account.

 

Labour cannot stop the Tories voting through legislation in Parliament, but they can look to gain public support against any Government policies which they think will be damaging.

 

Labour need to find a new leader who has a chance of becoming  popular with the British public, who can transform them within 4 years,  ready to form a Government.   I am not sure who the new leader will be,  but  it needs to be someone who is strong enough to make required changes.  Perhaps former Army Major Dan Jarvis,  is the person for the job ?

 

[Maharg1]

3 minutes ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

Lets keep it civil please.

 

What is absolutely certain, is that with a Government with more than a working majority, we cannot afford to have the main opposition party in a divided situation, where they are unable to hold Government to account.

 

Labour cannot stop the Tories voting through legislation in Parliament, but they can look to gain public support against any Government policies which they think will be damaging.

 

Labour need to find a new leader who has a chance of becoming  popular with the British public, who can transform them within 4 years,  ready to form a Government.   I am not sure who the new leader will be,  but  it needs to be someone who is strong enough to make required changes.  Perhaps former Army Major Dan Jarvis,  is the person for the job ?

 

 

Labour has always voted against everything just for the sake of it.  As one of the women Labour MPs said at the Brexit vote

"I am fed up with being the opposition for the sake of being the opposition and I will be voting with the Government.

[tobyjugg2]

 

Not a chance current labour will do that unc

 

 

Needs a split and at least one of the major unions supporting an alternate traditional labour.

Otherwise all we will get is Corbyn continence Candidate as leader and deputy.

 

and the Toerag will (unbelievably before Corbyn) probably end up in power for 10 years until he's toppled from within the Tory party, by God knows who.

probably the anti-christ

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[Maharg1]

It's such a shame why you are so nasty to the lovely and fair Boris the man to take us out of the EU.

Edited December 27, 2019 by Maharg1

[fletch70]

5 minutes ago, Maharg1 said:

 

Labour has always voted against everything just for the sake of it.  As one of the women Labour MPs said at the Brexit vote

"I am fed up with being the opposition for the sake of being the opposition and I will be voting with the Government.

That is complete and utter tosh.  Sometimes they give a free vote, sometimes MPs vote against the party line. They do not expel huge swathes  of the parliamentary party like BJ did. 
 

Having said that, we have an adversarial system and the Tories are as bad if not worse. 

[tobyjugg2]

On 27/12/2019 at 19:57, Jase1982 said:

 

You are the epitome of someone who doesn't like change.

 

On 27/12/2019 at 19:57, Jase1982 said:

If you believe your extreme narrative - I actually believe the current narrative is extreme because it's extreme to have one entrenched position, and not to consider other possibilities. 

 

On 27/12/2019 at 19:57, Jase1982 said:

I'm not saying I'm right

 

 

 

Not true - I just don't want change for the worse

 

 

So center is now the extreme and entrenched is it?  - - - says the extreme and entrenched cling-on far left eh?

- Even half way decent politicians would have resigned by now

 

 

Yes you are. Despite your claims about me:

YOU wont put any definitions around your fantastical rhetoric,

and YOU won't accept that even life long Labour voters (like me) dont want it.

- As defined by Labours historic trouncing under Corbyn, and his clinging on like a dried up bogey that desperately needs wiping from everyones face.

 

 

 

 

[fletch70]

TJ - How can anything be worse than we have no. A liar and coward as prime minister with the majority to do what he wants. If , and it is an if, he follows through with what he says, we will in all likely hood end up with either a really bad deal or no deal. Every organisation says that is bad. 
 

Say what you will about Corbyn - he seemed honest if a little dithery. We (remainers) I am sorry to say blew it. As someone I read said, we did not challenge the dishonest narrative that came from the leave camp. Today is an example in point, two people on our plane happily said it will be good , going as far to equate the rise of China as an economic superpower with a positive reason for leaving the EU. You can not make this crap up. 

[honeybee13]

The superpowers will walk all over us, we're in a weak position to negotiate as a small country.

[honeybee13]

Why confused, fletch?

[fletch70]

1 hour ago, honeybee13 said:

Why confused, fletch?

Confused at how people just do not think for themselves and frankly believe certain newspapers. We get told a lie every time we pick up a paper, in the small circulation qualities it is a cleverer lie but in the tabloids it is just a great big fat one. We will be better off means they- the ultra rich will be, after all they don’t want to have to pay for pesky social policies or labour rights now do they. 
 

Hobby horse dismounted - but you did ask