Article 50 Discussion

[Jase1982]

9 minutes ago, fletch70 said:

Ny the way Toby, can you tell me where (apart from in the right wing press) Corbin ever offered open door immigration and full benefits (not that they are worth much) as soon as you arrive? 

 

+1

 

10 minutes ago, fletch70 said:

As by it’s definition, capitalism must at some point fail, you can not keep increasing profits for ever the question is, are we in late capitalism as many think. 

 

Personally I think the system has been on its knees for years, but they all failed to realise the financial sectors ability to create money out of nothing.  In theory we could keep going on forever.

[tobyjugg2]

First

Have you two already chosen to forget the discussion a few pages back where those immigration policies were declared?

Perhaps if you both hadn't avoided answering so hard, you wouldn't have 'forgotten so easily and quick;y

 

To refresh your memories Start here

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/topic/397253-article-50-discussion/?do=findComment&comment=5020258

 

lefty memory seems to be taking on the Brexit promises tactic 'prove we said that, then prove we meant that'

Labourlist quotes were used her in summary. Go from there - presumably avoiding it like you did then

 

 

and

" As by it’s definition, capitalism must at some point fail, you can not keep increasing profits for ever the question is "

 

You are mistaking inflationary monetary policy with capitalism as well as MANY other things which are pipedreams.

 

and I'm not claiming that our current capitalist system is good or right, just that it needs tweaking, not replacing with a proven  inferior product.

 

 

 

and what did you say about Corbyn instantly resigning against my claim he would hang on and on if he lost Jase?

 

 

Edited December 24, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

Oh and Merry Christmas to all remainers, even the loony left,

and even to those who were forced to vote for Tories due to fear of Corbyns antics.

 

Not to Hard  Brexiters though, as Corbyn has already arranged your best Christmas ever.

[tobyjugg2]

On 13/11/2019 at 12:19, Jase1982 said:

I thought Labour's official policy on immigration was open borders?  Or at least that's what they said at their party conference.

 

 

[fletch70]

Oh Toby

where do I start

Firstly what is voted for at conference does not automatically become political policy or at least not a priority. 
 

Secondly you are misunderstanding increase in profits. I do not mean inflationary profits but real  profits provided by real increased sales and real bottom line profits. This is the goal of capitalism. 
 

Also what do you mean by a proven inferior product? Socialism is the next stage after the collapse of capitalism so I’m not convinced we have fully seen it yet. You might not like the methods but China has pulled more people out of absolute poverty than anyone else in history. 
 

Lenin and his NEP was a passable move on the way to socialism. 
 

Let’s look at it another way, travel in the less developed regions of Eastern Europe and you will see less beggars, more cooperation and more respect for others than you ever see in the UK. I am currently in Kyiv and would, in the right circumstances move here. 

[tobyjugg2]

You are using China with its absolute dictatorship and 're-education' camps as an example?

and Russia under its dictators?

 

yeah right

 

 

1 hour ago, fletch70 said:

Let’s look at it another way, travel in the less developed regions of Eastern Europe and you will see less beggars, more cooperation and more respect for others than you ever see in the UK. I am currently in Kyiv and would, in the right circumstances move here. 

 

You mean like the UK was 30/40/50 years ago?

 

 

 

 

and you are defining your own view of capitalism,

just as there are various opinions, examples and interpretations of what Marxism is.

[tobyjugg2]

.. most fantasy wishful thinking

[Jase1982]

4 hours ago, tobyjugg2 said:

and I'm not claiming that our current capitalist system is good or right, just that it needs tweaking, not replacing with a proven  inferior product.

 

 

I don't see how you can claim anything that would come after capitalism is proven to be inferior?  The big lie is that there have ever been wholesale socialist or communist countries.  They've all had to accept varying degrees of market influence because you can't have anything else running alongside capitalist markets.

 

Tory Britain capitalism has driven us towards is a profit driven society where compassion and society come last down the pecking order.  I haven't got any real issue with the idea of capitalism, but you can't have a free market without wholesale regulation and extreme state intervention - something Tories dont believe in.  The drive for increased profit and privatisation of public services has had a direct hand in increasing poverty, homelessness and the cost of living.  It's no coincidence that inequality has shot up over the last 30 years.

 

I'm starting to sound like a broken record now but I'm convinced the Tories deliberately ran our industry down and pushed us towards a low wage, low skilled economy in order to create Tory voters because the original working class aren't working class anymore.  I don't get why anyone can be happy with this version of capitalism.

[tobyjugg2]

" I don't see how you can claim anything that would come after capitalism is proven to be inferior?  "

 

Name one that is?

 

Russian marxism?

Communist China?

North Korea?

Iranian theocracy?

 

All supposedly 'post capitalism

 

 

Basic human nature

 

You have a country of a million people that goes communist

To each as they need from each as they are able

 

1. Immediately some will swing the lead,

2 . then others will see them getting away with it, and start saying why should they work hard when those working less are sitting at home enjoying the fruits more - and either work less or become disaffected dissidents who say the system is unfair.

3. some mechanism has to be put in place to force the lazy ones to work with some elite deciding

 

- Dictatorship in three easy steps,

 

 

Name one attempt that hasn't

 

 

The basic concept of Marxism defines it

Overthrow the current elite who think they are entitled,

and replace them ...

-- with themselves as 'actually the more entitled to be entitled.

 

 

Shangri-La isn't real you know.

 

 

 

You moan about our capitalism - but it IS what we vote for.

You are the definition of that disaffected

 

 

[Jase1982]

31 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

" I don't see how you can claim anything that would come after capitalism is proven to be inferior?  "

 

Name one that is?

 

Russian marxism?

Communist China?

North Korea?

Iranian theocracy?

 

All supposedly 'post capitalism

 

Basic human nature

 

I disagree any are post capitalist though.  Just various forms of authoritarian regimes mixed with a degree of other forms of governance.  It's as you say, there always needs to be someone at the top "controlling" things in their own vision.  That's the challenge really, but I think that any forms of governance "should" work as long as the person or people at the top are basically jesus.

 

31 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

1. Immediately some will swing the lead,

2 . then others will see them getting away with it, and start saying why should they work hard when those working less are sitting at home enjoying the fruits more - and either work less or become disaffected dissidents who say the system is unfair.

3. some mechanism has to be put in place to force the lazy ones to work with some elite deciding

 

- Dictatorship in three easy steps,

 

 

Name one attempt that hasn't

 

 

The basic concept of Marxism defines it

Overthrow the current elite who think they are entitled,

and replace them ...

-- with themselves as 'actually the more entitled to be entitled.

 

 

Shangri-La isn't real you know.

 

 

 

You moan about our capitalism - but it IS what we vote for.

You are the definition of that disaffected

 

 

 

Your point two assumes market forces are still prevalent, and that currency is the primary motivator for all humans.  I would argue we can't have communism where any market forces exist because they create classes, and where classes exist the worst human traits like envy and jealousy will define human motivation.  Your point makes assumptions about lazy people and basically the have's and the have not's - take away the need to accumulate wealth or "things" and people wouldn't be looking over their shoulder at what their neighbours have, or drawing assertions about whether or not someone is lazy.  Surely in a free society people should have the right to be lazy if they choose to be?

 

These circumstances just make it easier for whomever "they" are to maintain their own wealth and power because we are constantly divided.

 

It isn't what I vote for, I vote for people that at least have an idea of what something better could look like.

Edited December 24, 2019 by Jase1982

[tobyjugg2]

Shangri-la isnt real

 

and Corbyn isnt even close.

[tobyjugg2]

Attempted de-selection of MP's voted in by the electorate because they voice disagreement

replacement of people who voice disagreement with his sycophants

 

Sounds just like another Stalin or Mao to me.

[honeybee13]

Boris sacked people too though, TJ.

[fletch70]

5 hours ago, tobyjugg2 said:

You are using China with its absolute dictatorship and 're-education' camps as an example?

and Russia under its dictators?

 

yeah right

 

 

 

You mean like the UK was 30/40/50 years ago?

 

 

 

 

and you are defining your own view of capitalism,

just as there are various opinions, examples and interpretations of what Marxism is.

I stated a fact about China , I did not say the methods were acceptable. 
 

I suggest you look into Marxism and compare it to what happened in the Soviet Union. Possibly save for a couple of years, Marxism did not exist. Incidentally Marx did not think we were evolved sufficiently for communism to succeed , hence the step of socialism with the dictatorship of the proletariat - think the short lived Paris Commune -Nationalisation and public not private ownership of the means of production. 

 

Kyiv is NOTHING like the UK was 50 years ago. Well certainly not in the North West where I lived. You just can not compare the two. 
 

Incidentally I think you have fallen for the hype of the New Right and Right realist authors when you think socialism means excuses to be lazy. Why not just admit you are a New Right Capitalist and be done with it. Being a remainer and New Right doesn’t have to be mutually exclusive . Ask David Cameron and Nick Clegg

[fletch70]

Just to add , Stalin was a paranoid dictator and others liked the Russian vice a bit too much 

[honeybee13]

Going off topic, I just wanted to wish everyone a very Merry Christmas. Have a great day.

[London1971]

Yup, thanks,  Same to you.

 

Important to note, that We are leaving the EU Jan 31st, stuff all we can do about it now, Tories have a huge majority with zero opposition, stuff all we can do about it now.  Labour will not be in a fit state to win an election till 2029 if we are lucky, stuff all we can do about it now.

 

Life will pretty much carry on as normal, we will all go to work, shop at the supermarket, get on a train, go to the pub etc etc. Just saying overall the UK is / will remain a pretty decent place to live for the vast majority.

 

Merry Christmas and a happy new year everybody.

[brassnecked]

Same to you HB,  have great dayand all on CAG, its a Bailiff Free day today as well so respite fro some.  and a Bah humbug to the useless politicians of all parties.

[fletch70]

Belated Happy Christmas from me although here it isn’t Christmas until 7th Jan - you might have guessed I’m in Kyiv on my jollies. 

[honeybee13]

Season's greetings, Fletch.

 

Is it snowy in Kyiv? I don't suppose it's very warm.

 

I went there for a couple of days when we still spelled it Kiev [I assume we're talking about the same place?]  I remember tree-lined roads with wooden dachas, it was attractive.

[fletch70]

There is no snow and the temp is very much on a par with the uk . They have forecast snow for the weekend but not much, a little different to my first visit in about 2011 when it was -16 on the first night.

 

Yes they are the same place, Kyiv is the Ukrainian spelling and Kiev is the Russian version so you see why they have changed it. 
 

It’s still cheap and the people nice although not many speak English ( except the one in the Metro today when I tried to use fingers for the number of tokens I wanted and she said ‘ I can speak English you know’.  I should have asked but most just shake their heads. 
 

 

[honeybee13]

I think I'll pass on the -16.

 

Hoping it stays mild-ish and that there isn't much snow.

[fletch70]

On 25/12/2019 at 10:03, London1971 said:

Life will pretty much carry on as normal, we will all go to work, shop at the supermarket, get on a train, go to the pub etc etc. Just saying overall the UK is / will remain a pretty decent place to live for the vast majority.

I hope you’re right , sadly I am less optimistic. I am relatively well insulated, at least for the next 4 years but I think inequality will widen and possibly back to the dark days of Thatcherism and riots. Let us hope I am wrong. 

[tobyjugg2]

On 24/12/2019 at 22:15, fletch70 said:

 

Incidentally I think you have fallen for the hype of the New Right and Right realist authors

 

 

LoL

 

say two who think

 

*  Anything post capitalist and Marxist is positive

- despite all forms of Marxism immediately displaying themselves as despotic dictatorships as soon as implemented

 

* Corbyn can bring anything or anyone together

when he wouldn't work with ANYONE else

- Not even his own sycophants in many cases

 

* Money is the root of all evil

- despite at core being nothing other than a token barter system that enables trade and business, but CAN be used in negative ways

 

* capitalism is destined to fail due to inflationary financial processes

- When communist countries use the same mechanisms - which are not essential to either Capitalism or Marxism

- Check out the Islamic view on making money from money - they are 100% right in that.

 

* Hope for everyone to be kind and 100% giving

- because you are a damned capitalists if you don't, and you would never see hunger or deprivation in a communist country

- .... and thats what they do all the time ...... ?

 

* marxism is great

- just not any of the ones so far

- apart from a few tiny bits which when taken in isolation from the horrendous methods might have worked out OK ... if just given a few more thousands of years

 

* Corbyn is the answer

- when he's repeatedly proven to be one of the problems

 

* Corbyn and his 100,000 supporters are right

- everyone else is wrong and they just need to be 'convinced' to get it right (anyone seeing the issues in 'Communist China? with 're-education')

 

 

 

 

ROFL

Wait until all those folk who voted for Corbyn in a last dying hope of a confirmatory referendum - that he would almost certainly have NEVER delivered in  the way people hoped anyway - get their next chance to vote ...

 

Corbyn will sit there continuing to hope that he will yet be seen as the lesser of two evils.

 

 

Edited December 27, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[fletch70]

You may think you think what I think but you are so wide of the mark as to be laughable. 
 

I don’t think I said any of those things and your interpretation of what I did say is really rather amusing.