Article 50 Discussion

[Jase1982]

22 hours ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

Care to describe Corbyns Brexit policy then

 

To my understanding of his cagey statements,

 

Its a  Corbyn negotiated Remain - which is NOT remain

or a Corbyn negotiated Leave - which is either similar to May/Johnson or no deal hard brexit if he tries the fantasy ruote we've benn going around on for 3 years,.

 

With whatever options he chooses to present, presented to the people

- which are indicated as Corbyns Leave or Corbyns Remain

 

I don't see him presenting simple Remain as an option - in fact he is specifically NOT saying that will be an option.

 

 

 

I think you're fixating a bit too much on the detail of specifically Corbyn's brexit strategy.  I know that's an odd thing to say considering I queried the detail in that piece from the independent.  However, if I can explain; I don't believe it matters at all what anyone says they're going to do at this stage.  Hypothetically speaking, if Labour do win a majority, I would expect them to go back to the EU and look to renegotiate the May/Boris withdrawal agreement in order to put it back to the people in a referendum.  What we would then see is yet another presentation of a "deal" that is supposedly substantially different to what we have seen previously.  In reality it would be the same as before, just with a few paragraphs moved about or removed entirely.  I've heard some Labour Mp's talk about a closer customs union, which at this stage is also nonsense because what sort of relationship we have with the EU would be defined after the withdrawal agreement has been ratified - Making noise about closer customs arrangements now is purely to give the notion that what Labour would do would be substantially different.  So I am in no way blind to the politics going on.

 

In terms of Corbyn being referred to as Stalin .. I would suggest that although our democracy desperately needs reform, the good thing is that we do have fail-safes to tamper any extremities.  If it weren't for the courts, the Tory's would have had us out by now, and they would have had us knee deep in goods from other markets like the US, and they would have stripped back regulation etc

 

I do also think there's some naivety to this whole debate though because all politicians can't exactly be completely honest all of the time.  First past the post encourages them to be dishonest because they have to appeal to the greater number of voters if they want to win, which inevitably means they have to superglue themselves to the fence and tell people certain things they want to hear.  They'll no doubt be some people that are Socialist, and don't know they're socialist, but still vote Tory.  They may have also voted leave.  There's so many different types of people that someone like Corbyn has to appeal to that it's impossible to meet all the expectations.  But at least with Corbyn, you need to be detective to get some inkling as to whether he's being deceptive.  Johnson just does it in the open.

 

So, I would say, just put all the ill feeling toward Corbyn to one side and vote for the best way to stop this madness.  We can deal with his policies later down the line.  He says a lot of things that I agree with in terms of re-nationalisation because privatisation has been a disaster.  But I'm not naive enough to believe he can just wave a magic wand... re-nationalisation will cost an absolute fortune, and some of the rail contracts aren't up for a while yet.

 

Also, in all honesty I expect another hung parliament anyway, and hopefully the numbers will fall on Corbyn's side.  If there's another coalition I can see another election taking place in two years.  Of course, if the electorate return a Tory majority we're all stuffed, which is where the focus should lie.  The Tory party want disgruntled Labour voters such as yourself to not vote for Labour.

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

3 hours ago, Jase1982 said:

 

I think you're fixating a bit too much on the detail of specifically Corbyn's brexit strategy.  I know that's an odd thing to say considering I queried the detail in that piece from the independent. 

 

You stated you don't believe the papers,

well i largely do believe channel 4 dispatches + channel 4 news and The guardian with very consistent almost exclusively quality reporting

 

... and very ssignificantly more than I do your:

 

 

Quote

 

Hypothetically speaking, if Labour do win a majority, I would expect them to

 

 

... Hypothetical wishful thinking which frankly flies in the face of what we see.

 

 

 

 

 

Quote

But at least with Corbyn, you need to be detective to get some inkling as to whether he's being deceptive.  Johnson just does it in the open.

 

The argument there is that Johnson does it to give supporters an excuse  .....

Corbyn does it more craftily to actually deceive

 

In either case, both are simply wrong IMO, aand is specifically NOT how Corbyn presented himself

 

 

You could argue that Johnson does it - and I would answer yes, and I wouldn't vote for him either.

 

 

 

Quote

 

So, I would say, just put all the ill feeling toward Corbyn to one side and vote for the best way to stop this madness. 

 

and Corbyn being the problem as described in all that stuff I posted you choose to try to 'bypass.

 

 

 

Quote

The Tory party want disgruntled Labour voters such as yourself to not vote for Labour.

 

 

I found it difficult to maintain a semblance of politeness to your increased use of that sort of statement.

so I'll just say that 'and Corbyn supporters want remainers to vote for a Brexiter, without whom (ie with a real labour leader) Brexit would likely have been revoked by now.

I probably would vote Labour - just not Corbyn

 

 

 

Its been widely reported via reputable outlets that the Labour movement moved to Remain, and Corbyn frustrated that - and we can see he still is.

Simple observable fact.

- you chose to try to dismiss that - but the evidence we see clearly supports the reporting

 

Unlike your hypothesis/opinion which flies in the face of events - just like many of the Brexit arguments have and do.

 

 

Corbyn is one of the main problems - He is NOT a solution.

 

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

 

 

 

Mildly surprised you aren't cheering me on

 

 

Not surprised your 'righteous indignation' doesnt rise to Tories:

* collaborating in perverting the course of rape cases

* Senior 'member blaming Grenville victims for following professional advice - and dying

* Johnson withholding the security services report on Russian Interference in the referendum (despite the security services clearing it for release)

 

eh?

 

[tobyjugg2]

 

 

 

and given my stance on Corbyn, thats really got to be the stupidest allegation I've ever seen.

but then of course you are some sort of right wing, whoever seems to claim to support your Brexit Bile at the moment Tory/Brexiter/Kipper/BNP/BF

... aren't you ? 

 

[tobyjugg2]

oh - and @Jase1982 and @fletch70

 

I would vote Labour

... if they make an election pact with the Libdems and Greens and they said to vote Labour here

 

 

but thats the only way I see it happening as things stand

Edited November 6, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[honeybee13]

With the resignation of Tom Watson, are we going to see a change in the Labour party. I've always seen him as more of a moderate.

[brassnecked]

Might be a change for the worse. The Momentum lot will have no check and balance. Yellow stars ready to distribute?

[tobyjugg2]

 

Too right he will be greatly missed - and undoubtedly make the decision for many moderates 0 as is also occurring in the Tory Party.

.. but I do think Ian Austins suggestion that Labour voters vote for Johnson is crazy, although I had a touch of that crazyness for a spell myself,

 

If it was a choice between just Johnson or Corbyn - I would struggle and probably not vote - but it isn't,

and I don't want either of Johnson or Corbyn in no 10 or leading a major UK party.

 

 

Why would i struggle as Johnson seems to clearly be the greater evil to anyone with a brain and a conscience?

Because Corbyn is trying greatly reducing our options to far right or far left and is just a slightly lessor evil IMO and he is ending the Labour party as a real option for moderates - unforgivable.

 

.. and politics being a circle - those extremes are only a fag paper apart in my opinion in real world situations as seen by normal folk.

 

 

 

as posts are again (continuing to be) edit/deleted etc without being flagged as such

Please don't assume what you see here is what I wrote

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

In addition to Johnson withholding the report into Russian interference in UK election and the referendum,

 

OBR cancels plans to publish revised borrowing forecasts

the OBR has said it has cancelled plans to publish this document,

because the cabinet secretary has decided it would not be compatible with election “purdah” rules - which are meant to stop the civil service making announcements during the election period that could affect the result.

 

 

 

 

While Corbyn,

In addition to successfully getting rid of Tom Watson, and defining the Labour Party as NOT a remain party

https://labourlist.org/2019/07/labour-not-a-remain-party-says-corbyn-spokesman/

 

Having failed in his attempt to get the locals to vote for a momentum plant, apparently simply refuse to select the locally chosen candidate after 'planting' accusations

 

" LabourList also understands that Sally Gimson, the pro-Remain activist from Camden selected to stand for Labour in Bassetlaw, has not been endorsed and will not be able to stand as a candidate. "

 

"The selection result in Leave-voting Bassetlaw had come as a surprise to many, as Unite-backed Ashfield councillor Keir Morrison was expected to win.

It was thought that Gimson was included as a ‘paper candidate’. "

{... Oh dear, Corbyn been Corbyned again?}

 

" According to a well-placed source, at least one of the complaints was submitted by Maryam Eslamdoust, the Camden mayor who is both a party member in Holborn and St Pancras and works for Labour in its headquarters. "

 

https://labourlist.org/2019/11/labour-nec-refuses-to-endorse-williamson-hepburn-and-godsiff/

 

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[fletch70]

7 hours ago, brassnecked said:

Might be a change for the worse. The Momentum lot will have no check and balance. Yellow stars ready to distribute?

 

I am really not sure that sort of comment is either helpful or true. 

 

I do have some concerns about Momentum, it seems they have caused problems in selecting people who may have been good candidates and as for the areas that have no candidate in place it is criminal neglect but I am not sure who exactly to blame.

[tobyjugg2]

17 minutes ago, fletch70 said:

but I am not sure who exactly to blame.

 

Why would that NOT be the leader?

 

One of Tom Watsons moderate Labour Friends has also been 'not chosen' (getting around the risk/certainty of his local party reselecting him) for 'voting against the whip 3 times' hasn't he?

How rich is that from Corbyn - over 500 times he defied the whip wasn't it?

 

.. but of course that was when Labour was a broad church tolerant of different perspectives ... and not an intolerant radical left clique

 

Labour - it certainly aint.

 

 

 

Edited November 7, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[fletch70]

I am saying that local parties have been slow in finding candidates. My area is ripe for the taking with the sitting Brexit MP standing down. He has a large majority but has been here for 30 years and IS a good local MP. I know he intervened on my behalf several years ago with the DWP and they wrote off over £1000 they has wrongly paid me over the course of a year. It was an amount I genuinely believed I was entitled to and I had kept the DWP up to date on my status. They had failed to act and a charity had assured me I was entitled to the money.

 

If he did that for me I am sure he will have done things for other people so will lose that good will

[tobyjugg2]

Then corbyn should be spending less time deselecting and disheartening good MP's shouldn't he?

Everyone knows that was what he wanted to do when he reduced the votes needed to 1/3rd

- and thats what Corbyns 'replacement candidates are getting isn't it - 1/3rd - or less

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/oct/26/labour-mp-diana-johnson-reselected-after-very-stressful-campaign

 

 

" I’m absolutely delighted that the members of Hull North put their confidence in me as they did in 2005, 2010, 2015 and 2017,” she told HullLive. “I always knew that members would back me”. "

"Momentum-backed local councillor Aneesa Akbar unsuccessfully attempted to replace her as the party’s candidate for the seat after a third of local party branches voted in favour of a full selection process.

LabourList reported that it understood Johnson had secured 292 votes out of almost 400 cast, including more than 200 postal votes, while Akbar received 101 votes."

 

 

" fellow Labour MP Ian Murray was reselected as the candidate for Edinburgh South despite strident criticism from Unite, which accused him of consistently undermining the leadership. "

Edited November 7, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[fletch70]

Well I kind of think that being forced to stand for re selection is in principle no bad thing. It will get rid of lazy incumbents who are neither good constituency MPs or good parliamentarians. Remember it is onluy 1/3 to trigger the re selection process.  

 

The problem is of course the way the Labour (and Conservative) parties are made up of activists. By their very nature activists tend to be at the extremes of the ideologies. In labours case currently more left, in the Tories verging on the far right - these are often older middle class seekers of empire , well at least in the Shires it is. 

 

I am delighted that the MP for Birmingham Hall Green has been deselected although I hope this won't let the Tories back in (unlikely considering the majority an the fact JLR have been a central employer heavily impacted by Brexit.  

[tobyjugg2]

13 hours ago, fletch70 said:

I am saying that local parties have been slow in finding candidates.

My area is ripe for the taking with the sitting Brexit MP standing down. He has a large majority but has been here for 30 years and IS a good local MP.

 

 

Don't see Corbyn leading by example.

 

 

Quote

The problem is of course

....

often older middle class seekers of empire

 

Corbyn seems to fit that description absolute nail on the head doesn't he.

 

 

 

You Simply Can't trust a Brexiter

 

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[fletch70]

Nothing like taking a quote out of context is there so you can bash Corbyn. Do you not see that by bashing him all the time, you may help the Tories actually get in . Not every constituency have realistic alternatives to the Con/labour dichotomy.

[tobyjugg2]

Taking it out of YOUR desired context perhaps .... But answer me this - in what way is my response inaccurate?

 

'bashing him all the time?

In what way is my statements on him not only accurate, but supported by his teams declarations and actions, and actual reports even on labourlist?

- he's bashing himself - and us - just like Johnson is when you examine eithers claims critically - as we should with politicians

 

 

and my 'bashing' may entirely unintended help another deceitful Brexiter to get in ... BUT ONLY if people believe the deceit that the only option is Corbyn or Johnson

... BUT that isn't the case is it?

 

and my posts are actually intended to:

A: Show some honesty in challenging supporters of people like Johnson and Corbyn, neither of whom seem fit to run a pub in my opinion, let alone a country in turmoil

B: Show that NOT voting for Brexiter Corbyn does not necessarily mean you are supporting Brexiter Johnson

- there are other parties you know, and ones who unequivocally support Remain

- Parties which will hopefully show both Johnson and Corbyn how to do it

 

 

- at least theres a chance they can if voters aren't trapped by the lie that voting against Corbyn is a vote for Johnson ... and vice versa

IT ISN'T

 

 

Brexiters should question Johnsons intents in the same way

After all Johnson was and is a Remainer at heart as he has always stated prior to it being in his interests to support it ... with outright lies

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

Lets put it in another way

 

Johnson is a life long remainer, Father of Lies, is claiming to be the champion of something he has never believed in, is undoubtedly only in it for personal political advantage, clearly seems to intend to pursue actions which will make any close arrangements with the EU IMPOSSIBLE despite claiming that is not what he is doing

Sold Brexit on the Basis that he will fill in the detail later ... and thats what you voted for.

Vote now .. he'll fill in the detail later .. and thats what you voted for.

 

 

so the ONLY thing we can be sure of that he will do is:

* Whatever he is forced to do despite his best efforts - legal or otherwise

* Whatever is in his own interests (and I seriously question that any form of Hard Brexit is, if he actually got elected without needing Brexit Party 'support)

 

 

 

Corbyn a life long eurosceptic, who does whatever he likes, defied the Labour whip endlessly - but uses it himself as an excuse to deselect good MP's voted in by the public, clearly thinks what he applies to the Tories doesn't apply to him ... promotes intended actions in a way which will make any close arrangements with the EU IMPOSSIBLE despite claiming that is not what he is doing - AND despite those intentions not needing to be that way ...

... and mumbles something about negotiating, and maybe offering something in a referendum .... which he will tell us about later after we've voted him in.

Vote now .. he'll fill in the detail later .. and thats what you voted for.

 

 

Sound about right?

Any of that you can realistically dispute?

 

 

You simply Can't trust a Brexiter ... or Boris Johnson

 

Edited November 8, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

Clarification:

 

(and I seriously question that any form of Hard Brexit is, if he actually got elected and no longer needed Brexit Party MPs' 'support)

 

[fletch70]

Well of course if Corbyn is a Marxist he will call himself working class as (as far as I know) he does not own the means of production of anything other than this thoughts. 

 

I agree with you that Boris is just an opportunist and I also agree that Corbyn is in a somewhat difficult position because he is a legit supporter. I am not sure what he is promoting that you think is incompatible with either membership of the EU or close alignment.

 

Which good MP has the NEC deselected - lets face it Roger Godsiff is against core labour values of non discrimination. And this is a difficult point , Corbyn is anti the ruling power in the state of Israel, I have not seen any evidence he is anti Semitic although they should have acted more swiftly. 

[tobyjugg2]

On 05/11/2019 at 16:23, fletch70 said:

 

As I said it might be the remain option included a commitment to the Euro or Schengen

 

Before I go into your queries above - which have already been addressed fletch, lets look back at what I've just quoted from you

 

So what we we gain from these concessions to our existing great deal?

... and why would Remainers want any more negotiating to change the deal we want to Remain on?

... and why would Leavers want to join the Euro or Schengen for all the tea in China :-/ - despite some howling diatribes from them claiming we already are?

 

That isn't remain ...

or leave

or anything approaching an improvement for either party it would seem to me. In fact ...

 

It takes a special kind of fool to pick the worst bits of both sides of an agreement and suggest them as a compromise..

- Therasa may did and Johnson has actually managed to raise the stakes on the crappest hand.

 

Whats different in this Corbyns version you seem to allude to?

... Apart from that its corbyns folly rather than May or Johnsons .. and possibly raising the risk while lowering the returns even further?

Edited November 8, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

On 05/11/2019 at 13:32, Jase1982 said:

 

 If voting for Labour means a second referendum then I'm confident remain would come out on top this time around, and so for me, they are still a remain party. 

 

 

and to Jase a similar question

 

What if the remain option in the referendum isn't actually remain

... Just like Brexit isn't the Brexit sold in the last referendum (just to prove it happens)

 

[Jase1982]

4 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

 

and to Jase a similar question

 

What if the remain option in the referendum isn't actually remain

... Just like Brexit isn't the Brexit sold in the last referendum (just to prove it happens)

 

 

Well, remain can never be remain.  What I mean by that is that we'll never get what we had back at this stage.  Brexit has permanently damaged our reputation, and we'll never have the same influence etc.  So, it's a completely hypothetical question with no real answer at this stage that I can see.  I couldn't possibly make a judgement call now on what sort of offer to remain is put on the table in the event of a second referendum in six - nine months time.

[tobyjugg2]

1 minute ago, Jase1982 said:

 

Well, remain can never be remain.  What I mean by that is that we'll never get what we had back at this stage.  Brexit has permanently damaged our reputation, and we'll never have the same influence etc.  So, it's a completely hypothetical question with no real answer at this stage that I can see.  I couldn't possibly make a judgement call now on what sort of offer to remain is put on the table in the event of a second referendum in six - nine months time.

 

Thats avoiding the issue and you know it - so do we

 

We can remain on our existing TERMS

... provided that isn't blocked as an option by Corbyn/Johnson.

 

Now stop doing a Corbyn and answer honestly.

[fletch70]

I was only suggesting hypotheticals and not what I thought would happen. I personally think we should have joined the euro and we should have joined Schengen but that was then not now. 
 

Maybe you can answer some of the questions I asked