Article 50 Discussion

[tobyjugg2]

Any reasonable doubt left now Jase?

 

Remainers in England do only have the libdems, and I can't see any Brexiters trusting Corbyn either when they have a choice of Johnson or Farage

Edited November 5, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[Jase1982]

13 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

Any reasonable doubt left now Jase?

 

Remainers in England do only have the libdems, and I can't see any Brexiters trusting Corbyn either when they have a choice of Johnson or Farage

 

I have plenty.  I'll need to watch dispatches, but my main point was that there was no detail in the story ran by the independent.  That information either had to come from one of the three, or they bugged his phone, or it was made up in order to support the narrative.  This is why I don't read any newspaper at all, because there's often no detail and a lot of it is made up.  Just ask Boris, who has had yet another retraction because he made some more stuff up in one of his columns.

 

All in all I don't really understand the furore.  Yes, I would like more Labour MP's to come out and hammer brexit for being the nonsense we all know it is.  But, I also understand why they need to take a softer approach to Brexit because they need the support of voters who voted to leave.  If voting for Labour means a second referendum then I'm confident remain would come out on top this time around, and so for me, they are still a remain party.  They're the best chance anyone has of stopping this madness, and whilst I understand concerns over Corbyn, I think voters should put them to one side and vote strategically.  I just don't think that democratically anyone could, or should, just revoke article 50 and put it to bed.  So, the best route democratically would be to come up with a plan, create a strategy for leaving the EU, and put it forward in a second referendum.

[tobyjugg2]

15 minutes ago, Jase1982 said:

 

I have plenty.  I'll need to watch dispatches, but my main point was that there was no detail in the story ran by the independent.  That information either had to come from one of the three, or they bugged his phone, or it was made up in order to support the narrative. 

 

Yes, I would like more Labour MP's to come out and hammer brexit for being the nonsense we all know it is.  But, I also understand why they need to take a softer approach to Brexit because they need the support of voters who voted to leave. 

 

If voting for Labour means a second referendum then I'm confident remain would come out on top this time around, and so for me, they are still a remain party. 

 

 

Shame they aren't a remain party for Corbyn.

Its all over the papers now.

 

Does sound like you are looking for any glimmer rather than looking at the facts Jase.

 

 

So Corbyn says - I'll tell you what our policy will be on the biggest issue there is facing the UK ...  after I'm elected.

Sounds alarmingly like 'Theres no plans for no deal because we'll get a great deal' to me.

 

and corbyn saying we will decide, when the PLP, momentum and the overwhelming majority of the Labour party (Even his unwaveringly supportive chancellor) have already decided ... but Corbyn, the man who was supposed to listen to the Party and the People - has decided otherwise.

He means he will decide.

Tin pot Stalinist dictator

 

.. and I've been a life long union member (even when moved into management and kept up my dues when I went contract) and Labour voter with only about 3 exceptions (one for a counsellor)  in well over 40 years.

 

 

Long past time momentum looked up and saw reality

 

Hopefully 3rd time lucky with this post. This site is completely borked.

 

[tobyjugg2]

I dont care if the libdems officially dont stand a chance where I am - I'm not voting for Corbyn.

[Jase1982]

41 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

 

Shame they aren't a remain party for Corbyn.

Its all over the papers now.

 

Does sound like you are looking for any glimmer rather than looking at the facts Jase.

 

 

So Corbyn says - I'll tell you what our policy will be on the biggest issue there is facing the UK ...  after I'm elected.

Sounds alarmingly like 'Theres no plans for no deal because we'll get a great deal' to me.

 

and corbyn saying we will decide, when the PLP, momentum and the overwhelming majority of the Labour party (Even his unwaveringly supportive chancellor) have already decided ... but Corbyn, the man who was supposed to listen to the Party and the People - has decided otherwise.

He means he will decide.

Tin pot Stalinist dictator

 

.. and I've been a life long union member (even when moved into management and kept up my dues when I went contract) and Labour voter with only about 3 exceptions (one for a counsellor)  in well over 40 years.

 

 

Long past time momentum looked up and saw reality

 

Hopefully 3rd time lucky with this post. This site is completely borked.

 

No I'm fully aware of the facts.  Although I'm, unsure what your position is other than being firmly entrenched in the "I hate Corbyn" camp.  I'm just looking at a different set of facts, which outline that the best route to remain is presently to vote Labour.  It helps that Corbyn has said some things I agree with!

 

In terms of Corbyn being a tin pot dictator; I would draw you back to earlier comments I made about Socialism.  The issue being that Socialism often fails because it involves taking things away from people, and meets such vociferous objections that the only route available is to become a dictator.  The Jeremy Corbyn I'm aware of has always been quite a warm, open, and inclusive sort of man.  When he first became leader of the Labour party he opened his cabinet up to the very people who despised him.  What did they do in response?  They stabbed him through the chest, and were openly defiant, and disrespectful of the democratic decision to make him leader.

 

I'm not saying he's perfect, no one is, but he's presently the best hope for change and to remain a member of the EU.  So that's what I will stick with unless someone can present me with an alternative solution.

Edited November 5, 2019 by Jase1982

[tobyjugg2]

24 minutes ago, Jase1982 said:

No I'm fully aware of the facts. 

 

Care to describe Corbyns Brexit policy then

 

To my understanding of his cagey statements,

 

Its a  Corbyn negotiated Remain - which is NOT remain

or a Corbyn negotiated Leave - which is either similar to May/Johnson or no deal hard brexit if he tries the fantasy ruote we've benn going around on for 3 years,.

 

With whatever options he chooses to present, presented to the people

- which are indicated as Corbyns Leave or Corbyns Remain

 

I don't see him presenting simple Remain as an option - in fact he is specifically NOT saying that will be an option.

 

 

[fletch70]

According to the Labour Party website the vote would be on a deal as renegotiated or remain. I can’t see how remain can be anything else 

 

it might be a soft Brexit or remain but we need to get Boris and the Tories in that ditch 

[tobyjugg2]

you need to carefully check what he says.

 

I distinctly remember him saying, when pressed-  'A Brexit and A remain option' after saying he would renegotiate the leave and remain terms.

Reasonably sure it was with Andrew Marr

 

All the times we've seen him say Labour would campaign for Remain has been against a Conservative referendum with may/johnson leave vs real Remain.

 

Nothing like that since .. very carefully avoided and not even that Labour would campaign for Remain.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[fletch70]

https://labour.org.uk/page/labour-brexit-plan/

[fletch70]

Yes it might be the remain option includes the single currency or Schengen. I am not totally convinced  I am against either. I do not see what is wrong with a United States of Europe if I am honest- lets face it, it was a disaster across the Atlantic wasn't it? And in that I am excluding Trump beause he is a disater

[tobyjugg2]

" Within six months of being elected, we will put that deal to a public vote, alongside remain. Two clear options, both agreed with the EU "

 

... What remain option would that be that needs agreeing?

 

 

 

 

Asked if there would be “leave” and “remain” options in a second referendum, Corbyn said: “It would be on the basis of whatever we have succeeded in negotiating.”

 

“The referendum would be on a negotiated deal or alternatives to that. It’s not a re-run of 2016,” Corbyn said.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-labour/corbyn-any-new-brexit-vote-will-not-be-leave-or-remain-re-run-idUKKCN1SZ2RI

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everything he says avoids simply saying that simple 'Remain' will be one of the options - and leaves 'room for interpretation; just like johnsons rights and regs 'assurances'

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[fletch70]

2 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

" Within six months of being elected, we will put that deal to a public vote, alongside remain. Two clear options, both agreed with the EU "

 

... What remain option would that be that needs agreeing?

 

 

 

 

Asked if there would be “leave” and “remain” options in a second referendum, Corbyn said: “It would be on the basis of whatever we have succeeded in negotiating.”

 

“The referendum would be on a negotiated deal or alternatives to that. It’s not a re-run of 2016,” Corbyn said.

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-labour/corbyn-any-new-brexit-vote-will-not-be-leave-or-remain-re-run-idUKKCN1SZ2RI

 

 

 

 

 

 

Everything he says avoids simply saying a simple Remain will be one of the options

 

they say a week is a long time in politics- that was nearly 6 months ago, before Boris, before Boris died in a ditch 

 

As I said it might be the remain option included a commitment to the Euro or Schengen but there is little point on thinking about it. We need to get the Tories out- surely we can agree on that. We need to stop the Tory wholesale demolition of the welfare state, we need created wealth to help all. We need a progressive taxation system and we a nationalised infrastructure - rail, buses, utilities. Oh yes and we need to sort out H.E. Education should be about that and not ticking boxes. These things count and will count after the election and any changes in our relationship with Europe 

[tobyjugg2]

9 minutes ago, fletch70 said:

We need to get the Tories out- surely we can agree on that.

 

We need to get Brexit cancelled first and foremost - not get Corbyn in at any cost.

 

Otherwise - imagine Corbyn gets in - Leaves the EU so he can rush through his nationalisation programs and then gets kicked out and Johnson or Gove or Pritti Pattel get a majority ....

 

 

and Corbyn is NOT a remainer, and has CLEARLY blocked the labour party and its members moves toward Remain despite claiming to be the person to 'give them the say' yeh right - NOT

Wouldn't trust him any more than I would Johnson

 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[fletch70]

I do not see us getting a Lib Dem majority which is the only sure way of getting Brexit cancelled. Letting BJ back in with a majority is a sure way of getting Brexit. I would say 'do the math'.

 

 

You also forget that it was actually the labour strongholds of the North who voted leave, yes Sunderland and Derby voting leave was akin to turkeys and Christmas but they did and they had their reasons no doubt- yes they were lied to but not sure how to put that right. People do not like to admit they were conned 

[tobyjugg2]

So what are you saying

Corbyn is lying to Leave voters to get their votes to get in power?

 

Yep - I would say misleading rather than Johnsonesque lying, but largely agree with that - but just like Johnson - WHO is he ACTUALLY lying too?

 

 

Like I said - dont trust Corbyn any more than i would Johnson

 

 

 

I think every seat the libdems win is a seat for Remain - the ONLY English party where Remain is the choice, and they will undoubtedly work with anyone to achieve that - and would work with others on progressive positive policies

win win it seems to me.

 

 

 

Corbyn also doesn't give a crap about NI as part of the UK does he - so the channel border wouldn't be an issue to him as he would see it as pushing Irish reunion which he supports.

Scotland - he's neutral on that isnt he

 

... Looks more and more like johnson - different claimed  stances - same actual results.

 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[fletch70]

Well Jo Swindon has ruled out a coalition so maybe that’s a fools hope. 
 

I think you confuse what Corbyn may have or may still think with the pragmatic approach he will need to run the country. 
 

what we must avoid is a disaster of a Tory government. It’s interesting there are at least two areas I know of with no labour candidate. One is Bosworth where the sitting Brexit MP is retiring with a half decent LD opponent and Eddisbury where Antionette Sandbach is standing as an independent. Both are quite rural with huge farming communities. 
 

You may not like Vorbyn but we need to be pragmatic and vote accordingly. Do not let your blind hatred ruin this countries chances 

[honeybee13]

I have my concerns about Corbyn and his left wing views, but I think the Tories are highly likely to ruin the country and the economy.

 

My concern about the LibDems is that revoking Article 50 overnight could lead to a serious backlash. A second referendum seems more justifiable to me if the polls are right in saying that a majority want to stay in the EU now.

[tobyjugg2]

2 hours ago, honeybee13 said:

 

My concern about the LibDems is that revoking Article 50 overnight could lead to a serious backlash. A second referendum seems more justifiable to me if the polls are right in saying that a majority want to stay in the EU now.

 

I think we worry too much about upsetting a minority of hard brexiters, when they don't give a damn about cheating and lying and proroguing and changing election dates .. ad nauseum  ... to get their way.

Sod em.

 

They can try and see if their lies work twice and  try for a new referendum - they are trying their damndest to block one at the moment despite Farage saying it was unfinished business - admittedly he thought he had lost ....

 

 

2 hours ago, fletch70 said:

 

I think you confuse what Corbyn may have or may still think with the pragmatic approach he will need to run the country. 
 

 

and I think you are confusing your hopes and wishful thinking with Corbyn reality

 

All he has to do is state it clearly and unequivocally ... he hasn't and wont.

 

He;s already promised Labour support for remain a couple of times against a Tory deal - but refuses to be held to it himself.

Two faced and deceitful is what i call it although 'dual standards' might be a more politic term.

 

 

So is he deceiving the Remainers - or the Brexiters to get their votes?

... or all of us except a small minority - like Johnson.

I think its the latter.

 

 

 

 

 

I can imagine Corbyns voice now

 

'but I have said it clearly and unequivocally - I'll decide what we support and what will be offered next spring'

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 5, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

2 hours ago, fletch70 said:

Well Jo Swindon has ruled out a coalition so maybe that’s a fools hope. 

 

I didn't say coalition now did I?

 

Reminder:

 

3 hours ago, tobyjugg2 said:

I think every seat the libdems win is a seat for Remain - the ONLY English party where Remain is the choice,

and they will undoubtedly work with anyone to achieve that - and would work with others on progressive positive policies

 

win win it seems to me.

 

 

 

Sounds to me like exactly what is missing from the two hopefully soon to be ex-main parties

 

Sinn Fein is managing it ...

Edited November 5, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[fletch70]

You seem to be putting all your energy into a hatred of Corbyn. This will not get us where we need to be. All it does is play into the hands of the right wing Tories. I am not convinced the Lib Dem’s are not orange book , Tories in sheep’s clothing which has been reinforced with Swindon actually saying she won’t do a deal with Corbyn. 
 

If we really do need her and him to decide to support each other in key marginals, what then?What happens, do we get another minority government with a confidence and supply agreement? 
 

There really does need to be a labour government . We need some democratic socialism to get us going. Do not let blind hatred get in the way of pragmatism. You talk about Sinn Fein and unionists , remember we actually need MPs who take their seats to defeat Johnson. 

[tobyjugg2]

10 hours ago, fletch70 said:

You seem to be putting all your energy into a hatred of Corbyn.

There really does need to be a labour government .

 

 

Its seems strange you missed all my many Critiques of Johnson, and perhaps look in a mirror before accusing others of single mindedness?

 

 

10 hours ago, fletch70 said:

I am not convinced the Lib Dem’s are not orange book ,

 

What happens, do we get another minority government with a confidence and supply agreement? 

 

 

With the libdems the main part - or at least a very large part - sounds good to me.

I not convinced that Corbyn is either Labour or democratic - quite the opposite.

 

 

10 hours ago, fletch70 said:

 We need some democratic

 

Really - With Corbyn - who is frustrating the democratic majority of Remainers in the Party?

eg Who reportedly agrees a policy with his leading caninet members which is in line with the overwhelming majority of the Party, then overturns it on the 'advice' of an unelected advisor?

 

and don't try the Brexiter spin of everybody is lying who disagrees with xxx

 

Phuuuut

 

Johnson is at least catering to the (reported) majority Brexiter support in the Tories

 

 

10 hours ago, fletch70 said:

You seem to be putting all your energy into a hatred of Corbyn.

Do not let blind hatred get in the way of pragmatism.

 

Whats blind about the issues with Corbyn I have raised?

They seem quite informed to me

 

- you on the other hand can't even clarify with any certainty his stance and intents regarding THE major issue of our nation - as he is is avoiding actually declaring it in any clear or timely way and claiming that is right.

No it isn't.

 

In fact your responses to the issues i raise seem to far more demonstrate blind support.

If you won't read news reports from demonstrably honest sources that clash with your beliefs - and wont insist on your hero declaring them ..... and simply rely of your hopes that he is a  working class hero (what!!! - a professional politician)

 

Perhaps look in a mirror and Don't let blind support of someone who uses the language of deceit and demands loyalty which he rarely if ever demonstrates i- get in the way of pragmatism

 

 

 

As you say - his avoidance of stating his honest intentions is a political ploy to get in power,

which sounds just about half a step from Johnsons outright lies to me.

Hardly democratic, honourable, open or honest is it?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited November 6, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

Perhaps poor taste - but not as poor as his.

My genuine sympathies go to those who lost their lives obeying what seemed reasonable authoritative advice

 

[fletch70]

Toby

 

With respect because you are entitled to your opinion, just as Farage supporters are entitled to theirs, I think you have misinterpreted what I have said and are also wrong on some points- although if you can provide evidence then I am happy to listen.

 

I have never said Corbyn is perfect, in fact far from it; I think he is the wrong man for the job but he is the leader of the Labour Party and I will support him as such until an opportunity presents itself to find someone better. 

 

I agree you have critiqued Johnson but too often it is a secondary critique of  comparing Johnson and Corbyn.

 

Remember, whoever becomes Prime Minister has to try and bring along almost 50% of the people who voted (and therefore have a right to complain) the other way. I have seen the stats about About Party activists bringing motions to Conference but we know that the majority of regular Labour Party members do not fully engage with their local party . So my question on that is How do you know what the 'vast majority' of labour members think? Corbyn is definitely Labour but probably more left wing than we have seen since the 1980's if not before.

 

You say I can not clarify his stance on the major issue - I can. It is to bring a second referendum with one option being to remain. It really can not be clearer than that. The substance of those deals is in the future so no one can say exactly what the situation will be- for a start we have to hope the EU offer us a further 5 months extension to get that second referendum done.

 

My critique of the LD are that I worry they are Orange- that is Neo liberal capitalists and I am against Capitalism and believe in Socialism with ultimately the means of production being owned by the people (the State). I believe this can then be run in a profitable way which will enhance all our lives. Is it right that the profits made by the travel companies along with Utilities and more go into the pockets of rich often non EU let alone British shareholders who pay little of no tax. I also can not see a Lib Dem majority and while I do not necessarily believe it when they say they will not support Labour , their stated position is they will only work with labour to stop a no deal Brexit. This is very different to working with Labour to put a deal on the table with a remain option. 

 

Much as I hate to say it, I do think the only viable option is to put some form of deal on the table- if nothing better can be worked out then May's deal against a remain. If a referendum then supported that deal, I would, with regret have to go with it. My anger against the rhetoric of the leave campaign is because we know there were lies told and we know that people voted for different versions of leave- people I speak to who admit voting leave often say it was the ECJ or even the Parliament they were against but many do not even know just how EU laws are passed; some even quoted the ECtHR. I also think the remain campaign was a shambles with no-one going up against the lies told.

 

We both want the same thing on the major issue but we have different ways of getting there. You want ( I think) a Lib Dem government, I want a Labour one.

 

As for JRM , well he may just be an asset to the Labour Party  

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

3 minutes ago, fletch70 said:

 

We both want the same thing on the major issue but we have different ways of getting there. You want ( I think) a Lib Dem government, I want a Labour one.

 

 

 

I'd prefer SNP without the independence, but libdem seems to be by far the best option available to me at the moment and the only clear Remain option.

 

I would and historically have found a Labour government generally quite acceptable - but as i said - not corbyn  - whatever he is.

At one stage I thought Corbyn might be a valid option if we were solidly in the EU, but I don't even believe that anymore either.

 

 

If you want to discuss corbyns alleged policies, start a thread - I'll join in

I think Few would disagree that re-nationalisation of Railways and Water wouldn't be a boon - but why is more questionable

I dont think renationalisation of  the Power Companies is even that clear cut.

 

I think much should be changed and tested before renationalisation of massively debt loaded (to pay dividends and executives)  companies like the water companies.

 

 

 

20 minutes ago, fletch70 said:

As for JRM , well he may just be an asset to the Labour Party  

 

 

 

Perhaps more a liability to everyone rather than an asset to anyone.

 

[tobyjugg2]

some really crappy stacked negatives above but I think you'll get what i mean

 

I think Few ordinary folk would disagree that re-nationalisation of Railways and Water would be a boon - but why is more questionable

as is what should be done initially to address it.

Edited November 6, 2019 by tobyjugg2