Article 50 Discussion

[fletch70]

All depends on the terms of the referendum. I can't see BJ going for a binary deal or stay so it would be stay deal of no deal in a STV style. If that were the case i think deal would win 

[tobyjugg2]

Its seems to me that an EU deal isnt really an option given the details I've seen on the ERG 'required future US deal ...

The current deal is just a trap for no deal next year

Edited October 24, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

I accept that Johnson would prefer a referendum on his deal (which is simply a prelude to no deal but whatever the EU would like and he will accept - nothing else) or no deal

 

but that is highly unlikely to be the choice unless he gains a clear majority in a GE

 

Corbyn wants his leave deal or his fantasy remain deal - so largely the same

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

Going to be interesting what Corbyn 'instructs and what Labour MP's do today.

 

Johnson con-[problem] should be voted down to prevent election date fiddling etc

 

but will corbyn support the libdem/snp proposal to set a fixed election day ?

and if not why not?

and whatever Corbyn says, what will Labour MP's do?

 

 

Interesting that the Labour deselection program isn't going in Corbyns favour and darned good Labour MP's are being supported by their local members against Corbyns 'cleansing program.

 

 

 

I don't think Johnson actually wants a real election 'peoples vote' any more than corbyn does.

LOL

 

 

 

 

[problem]

(skæm)

n

a stratagem for gain; a swindle

vb, scams, [causing problems] or scammed

(tr) to swindle (someone) by means of a trick

 

Edited October 28, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[Jase1982]

I think Labour are going to stick this out until public opinion turns against Johnson, or at least that is what they are hoping.  Presently, they hold the power in terns of when a general election can be held and it makes little sense for them to give up a good position now.  We're in for a long wait for a general election if what I understand is true.  How long can Boris keep the public hanging on to the notion that everyone else is thwarting brexit.

[tobyjugg2]

29 minutes ago, Jase1982 said:

I think Labour are going to stick this out until public opinion turns against Johnson, or at least that is what they are hoping.  Presently, they hold the power in terns of when a general election can be held and it makes little sense for them to give up a good position now.  We're in for a long wait for a general election if what I understand is true.  How long can Boris keep the public hanging on to the notion that everyone else is thwarting brexit.

 

So you think that yet another  EU extension after another 3 months of waffling and avoidance from Johnson AND Corbyn is a given do you?

 

 

I'm pretty certain Johnson and Corbyn don't.

Its quite clear BOTH want us out of the EU before any general election - its just that Corbyn will deny it.

 

and do you think that Labours position will improve or deteriorate with their blatant waffling avoidance?

 

and it is Corbyn who is undermining the REAL labour position as stated by most of the Cabinet - even his allies

Edited October 28, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[fletch70]

Looking at opinion polls, it seems that as time goes on, Johnson is losing both support and respect. As such it would make perfect sense to postpone the election. The problem is, Christmas, this really means that unless we have the election in early December, it will be mid to late January before the next opportunity - after all these posh Tory boys will not want to move from their log fires and stately homes to actually meet people in December. Also there can only be so much of reduced item size and numbers before the public realise hat there is very real inflation out there. Look at Jaffa cakes, there are now only 18 in a packet where there use to be 20 - or the multipacks of Mars bars- have you seen the size: when I were a lad they were 'fun size' .

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

1 hour ago, fletch70 said:

Looking at opinion polls, it seems that as time goes on, Johnson is losing both support and respect.

 

 

It seems not as fast as Corbyn is doing for the Labour Party

 

[tobyjugg2]

So selling the NHS and UK public out to US pharmaceutical companies to put control of UK medicine prices in the hands of US drug companies is now called

“valuing innovation”.

 

as in - adding right wing Tory innovation to the process of valuing (increasing the price of) medicines

 

Channel 4 dispatches

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/nhs-us-trade-deal-trump-boris-johnson-healthcare-drug-prices-liz-truss-a9175261.html

 

UK officials discussed NHS at ‘secret’ meetings with US drug companies as part of trade talks

Envoys sidestep ban on discussing drug prices by referring to controversial subject ‘valuing innovation’

Edited October 29, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

Puts it well although a lot of strong language

 

WARNING VERY BAD language Trump says (as in its true)

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

01.11.2019_Summary_of_U.S.-EU_Negotiating_Objectives.pdf

 

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

from the above document - the US's general provisions in negotiations

 

 

General Provisions:
-  Include general exceptions that allow for the protection of legitimate U.S. domestic objectives,
including the protection of health or safety and essential security, among others.

 

effectively need the US's OK for anything

-  Provide a mechanism for ensuring that the Parties assess the benefits of the Agreement on a periodic basis.

 

US can renegotiate when it likes what it likes

 

-  Provide mechanisms for terminating the Agreement under appropriate circumstances.

 

US can walk away when it likes

 

-  Provide a mechanism to ensure transparency and take appropriate action if the EU negotiates a free trade agreement with a non-market country.

 

You can't trade with people if the US says you can't

 

Edited October 29, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[Jase1982]

22 hours ago, tobyjugg2 said:

 

So you think that yet another  EU extension after another 3 months of waffling and avoidance from Johnson AND Corbyn is a given do you?

 

 

I'm pretty certain Johnson and Corbyn don't.

Its quite clear BOTH want us out of the EU before any general election - its just that Corbyn will deny it.

 

and do you think that Labours position will improve or deteriorate with their blatant waffling avoidance?

 

and it is Corbyn who is undermining the REAL labour position as stated by most of the Cabinet - even his allies

 

Not a given, but without a general election I don't see how we can move forward.  And Labour won't give them an election.  I hear today they're talking about changing the law to allow for a fixed election date to go through with 51% of the vote, so maybe we will get an election.

 

Labour's excuses for not agreeing to an election are even starting to wear thin on me.  I just wish they'd make a lot more noise about why the deal is bad, and why there are no up sides to Brexit.  Like why they haven't released a white paper detailing all the economic benefits.

 

I agree, I don't see Labour's position improving under Corbyn.  There's just been too much effective propaganda against him, and leavers would still rather back Boris, which says it all really.

 

[Jase1982]

Looks like we're getting a December election anyway.  If someone could explain the pantomime we saw yesterday that would be great!

[tobyjugg2]

@Jase1982

If I understand what you are asking correctly

 

Its all about not letting Johnson have a 'normal' method of genaral election, as he would then have the power to set and change the date ... eg to after any extension date

 

The SNP/Libdem motion is to fix the date of the election preventing shenanigans with the date at least.

 

Johnsons re-run version(s) of motions will be to try to ensure he can fiddle with the date of any election.

 

 

[fletch70]

The problem is , we know BJ is a liar and will do all he can to manipulate the circumstances. We have to fix the date of the election , problem as I see it , is it makes a mockery or the FTPA . I worry about the outcome of the election. Even if the SNP it Lib Dens hood the balance of power, there will be no time for a referendum. 

[tobyjugg2]

I'm confident the EU would grant an extension for a peoples vote referendum.

[tobyjugg2]

Fly on the wall listening in on telephone conversion in No10 - he'd been waiting a while.

 

 

Johnson:

Donald, Don, my main man, Its your man in the UK - I've been trying to get through to you for hours. about what you said on air

 

Trump:

Nige, I was the absolute greatest, I really really made your show the best and we played it just like Vlad said would work but it wouldn't have worked without me I was the best the greatest

 

Johnson:

No Donald, its Boris ......... the British Prime Minister

 

Trump:

Oh the other limey - what do you want.

 

Johnson:

What you said on the show is causing difficulties for our plan.

 

Trump:

No I carried out the plan - get you to support my number 1 man in England - Nigel, just like Vlad said right. You are just a number 2 and no straight flush at that.

 

Johnson: Donald  er Mr President ...  we were supposed to get Brexit done then get the deal ... remember

 

Trump (interrupting):

Now listen here you limey loser, nobody but me says what goes in our trade agreement and what doesn't - I decide.

 

Johnson: yes sir I know Mr President sir, that stuff about the EU and protecting rights and the NHS not being on the table was just to get Brexit done so we could really do what we agreed.

 

TRUMP: HUH?

 

JOHNSON: You know, a trick to con the plebs. just like you saying you didn't demand the Ukrainians

get fake dirt on your competitor in exchange for the American Tax payers money

 

Trump:

Oh right - I get it now and they should just not pay taxes like me if they didn't want me to spend it.

.. OK you do that, and make sure Nigel gets some seats this time.

 

Johnson:

Yes Sir Mr President, but [click] Hello, hello, hello Mr President, Sir,  are you still there.. ...

 

[tobyjugg2]

Well, Corbyn confirms Corbynite Labour is NOT a remain Party

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-brexit-labour-allotment-pact-remain-seamus-milne-diane-abbott-john-mcdonnell-a9184081.html

 

... apparently reneging on an agreement with his senior MP's on the advise of his senior unelected advisor's,

those advisor's championing and managing Labours revival down into the lowest levels of popularity Labour has ever seen

 

 

 

"The Labour leader reportedly met with allies John McDonnell, the shadow chancellor, and Diane Abbott, the shadow home secretary, at his north London allotment during the summer and agreed that the party should move to a position opposing Brexit.

However, the plot was scuppered by Seumas Milne, Mr Corbyn's director of strategy and communications, according to a Channel 4 Dispatches programme to be aired on Monday night."

 

 

That should end labour.

Brexiters will go Brexit Party - or Con

Remainers only have Libdems to vote for in England

 

 

Other issues?

What other issue - they are all transient, changeable, affectable and will almost certainly take multiple election periods and wins to implement and we can vote anybody out next time with limited damage..

- Brexit is not.

[Jase1982]

How would they possibly know what happened and what was said at his allotment?

[tobyjugg2]

Perhaps watch dispatches and see

 

and it certainly fits with what Corbyn is and is NOT doing

[tobyjugg2]

and don't foirget his statements on a renegotiated Remain or a renogotiated Brexit

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

Have to log out and close page just to stop CPU being hammered

[tobyjugg2]

Ok back - I've completely blocked the sidebar see if that relieves the stress

 

"

The meeting at the allotment reportedly ended with the three agreeing that Labour would "unequivocally" back Remain and that Mr Corbyn would write a newspaper article announcing the change. 

Dispatches claimed that the article had been written and ready to publish but that, at the last minute, Mr Milne persuaded Mr Corbyn to ditch the plan. 

The party's Brexit position has been at the centre of a long-running row between senior members of the shadow cabinet and Mr Corbyn's closest advisers, including Mr Milne and the Labour leader's former chief of staff, Karie Murphy, who is now overseeing the party's election campaign.

Mr Corbyn's senior aides are widely reported to have urged him not to agree to many MPs' and members' demands for the party to fully oppose Brexit.

"

Edited November 4, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

emoji popout largely unusable, but this site uses MASSIVE resources just to display pages in firefox.

As soon as you try to insert emoji or anything extra ... resource and CPU usage goes through roof

 

Logout and shut down CAG page - resource usage and CPU usage drops hugely

 

Even just selecting another tab drops resource usage.

 

Edited November 4, 2019 by tobyjugg2