Article 50 Discussion

[fletch70]

5 hours ago, unsettledchimp said:

 Money at the level of Nations is difficult to comprehend.  For the majority of people the only basis of comparison is the ongoing and outgoing of their own bank account.  They equate personal debt with national debt.  I think Boris Johnson is an individual who encourages that thinking.  If you're explaining, you're losing. 

For those of us old enough to remember , Thatcher ran the same sort of narrative, likening the states finances with those of a housewife (now there is an outdated term). She claimed it was all about having more coming in than going out. Of course it was in her time that the Balance of payments stopped being roughly 0 and now in Q1 of 2019 it is almost as bad as it has ever been,

[tobyjugg2]

and for those that ever doubted it,

Here's the confirmation of the brexiters low tax for the rich, low regulation for the rich tax haven Brexit UK

 

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-truss/britain-will-be-low-tax-after-brexit-says-trade-minister-truss-idUKKBN1WE0IH

 

 

 

Given that the Tories are throwing money around to buy an election result, and I'm sure no-one doubts that those  'low tax' pledges are to the wealthy:

 

" The government’s fiscal rules stipulate that borrowing in 2020-21 should be below 2% of national output after taking into account the state of the economy. Achieving that would require either spending cuts or tax increases amounting to 0.5% of gross domestic product – about £10bn. "

 

So in a 'low tax' environment, with collapsed manufacturing -  who do we think is going to foot the bill in one way or another for that 10bn?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/sep/24/tories-increase-borrowing-by-28-as-possible-election-looms?CMP=Share_iOSApp_Other

 

Edited September 30, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[Maharg1]

Dream on Lefty - dream on

[London1971]

1. 5 posts check

2 . Every one about Brexit check

3. Key word used Lefty check.

 

All you need to to is mention 17.4 million and will of the people and your chance of being a troll goes from 90% to 100%

 

[Jase1982]

I think they're preparing to spend their way out of a recession.  It's true the deficit has gone down, but overall debt has increased.  It should be clear that this money will have to come from somewhere (if indeed they carry through with any of these promises, because I've seen some suggestions that 40 new hospitals is an exaggeration).  Other things just don't add up.. if Labour had made these spending promises there would be cry's of where is this money coming from etc

 

Has anyone else seen the latest posts that are doing the rounds on facebook?  They claim that the ruling by the Supreme Court that Boris Johnson's prorogation of parliament was unlawful, was largely based on European laws (so those nasty Europeans again telling us what to do).  Also, the MP's that brought forward the court case, as well as the BENN act were in collusion with French authorities.. An investigation is apparently underway investigating Hillary Benn etc for collusion with France.... although surely if you had a brain cell you'd have to question exactly what they're being investigated for....?  IF they were indeed being investigated.

[honeybee13]

Opposition MPs have traditionally used other sources of advice like the universities because they don't have the civil service to advise them. I"m not sure what's wrong with asking Europe for advice atm.

[brassnecked]

They only have to look up the EU notices to stakeholders to see what is reality.

[honeybee13]

How do you mean, BN?

[brassnecked]

They can guage how prepared the EU is and what areas need looking at by perusingthese Notices, then a little research and cross referencing would help them see what's what

 

https://ec.europa.eu/info/brexit/brexit-preparedness_en

 

https://ec.europa.eu/info/brexit/brexit-preparedness/preparedness-notices_en

 

They also misunderstand Article 50 as it's EU law, the Benn Act cannot be used to force the EU to grant any extension that Boris is forced to ask for.

[honeybee13]

Thank you for the explanation.

[unclebulgaria67]

Latest backstop replacement idea is customs centres away from border, which presumably will be declined by Ireland.

 

And Boris is telling EU leaders not to extend Article 50. 

 

PM Corbyn or PM Another by end of October seems likely !

[brassnecked]

Brian Rix would have written a superb farce around the Brexit shenanigans.  The EU leaders are under no obligation to grant any extension whomsoever asks them, the Benn Act is not compelling on the EU, being UK Law which is Subservient and inferior to EU law. We need the whole lot of them kicked out.

[Jase1982]

This is so stupid but Boris knows the brexiteers will believe it all.  Physical infrastructure on the border has never been an option and won't be accepted.  So, he's producing anything regardless of it's viability, so that it appears he's come up with something new.  When it gets rejected he can continue to lament the opposition for thwarting brexit.

[honeybee13]

That's what some commentators think, Jase. Bojo is trying to look as if he's negotiating but is offering something he probably knows will be rejected. After that, it's all the fault of Europe, Corbyn and the courts.

[brassnecked]

Absolutely HB, he, the ERG colleagues  and the Beadle must have hedge fund money riding in creaming off post Brexit bankruptcies.  Of course the beadle is too clever to get his hands too dirty so Boris is being set up as patsy to blame for the aftermath of No Deal.

[honeybee13]

I like this, John Crace tweeted a few minutes ago.

 

'Fair to say Boris Johnson's back-to-back interviews have not been a great success. If he has a Brexit plan he doesn't appear to know what it is or understand it.'

[tobyjugg2]

1 hour ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

Latest backstop replacement idea is customs centres away from border, which presumably will be declined by Ireland.

 

And Boris is telling EU leaders not to extend Article 50. 

 

PM Corbyn or PM Another by end of October seems likely !

 

 

I'm not fully ofay with the details surrounding the Benn act,

 

but heres what i believe is one of johnson plans

 

Send an official notification requesting an extension, which the EU are certain would result in a general election and/or new referendum - so would grant (for many reasons - but mostly NOT interfering in national democratic process despite what the extreme right wing might claim)

 

Then send some sort of official notice that we don't want it/reject it - which the EU will be bound by - unlike some 'note saying 'we don't want it' - which is unlikely to be actioned by the EU.

 

Would Johnson send the note then just say we are leaving anyway and that he refuses the extension ... absolutely

but does the Benn bill allow that?

 

 

 

..

In the meantime of course working hard to make the UK as incompatible with basic EU prime goals and requirements as possible.

.. his Turkey like government :-/ is the thing most likely to be incompatible. far more than any abusive 'note'.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[honeybee13]

Would Johnson send the note then just say we are leaving anyway and that he refuses the extension ... absolutely

but does the Benn bill allow that?

 

The people who wrote the Benn Act say that would be against the spirit of the Act and the law, I think. I read something yesterday but can't remember the detail now.

[unclebulgaria67]

Benn bill requires PM to ask for an extension.

 

 

[honeybee13]

It doesn't mention anything specific about sending another letter with the request though, UB. I certainly didn't see that coming.

[unclebulgaria67]

EU watch UK Parliament carefully. The Benn bill contains the request letter and therefore that is the legal requirement for this extension request. Any other letter a PM wants to send is irrelevant.

[hightail]

2 hours ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

Benn bill requires PM to ask for an extension.

So if he 'asks' and they say yes does he have to accept it or can he say he asked and we're crashing out anyway?

[tobyjugg2]

Lets present one of the issues that occurred to me which may not require Johnson to send any 'extra note - but that refusal of granted extension still needs addressing

 

Some EU member states have indicated they would resist any further extensions without good reason

 

Although UK parliament has SAID it will no confidence Johnson AFTER the extension,

There is no guarantee of that, or that it would succeed - as things stand

 

So Johnson sends a note that just says:

 

Hated enemies of free enterprise, financial criminality and profiteering,

 

As required by UK law, I am requesting an extension.

 

Up yours with brass nobs on

the Father of Lies esq.

 

 

All the nasty right wing rhetoric would be largely meaningless to the EU,

but that there was no defined purpose to the extension could be.

 

 

[honeybee13]

I thought I read that the Act has the wording of the letter in it, TJ.

[tobyjugg2]

3 hours ago, honeybee13 said:

Would Johnson send the note then just say we are leaving anyway and that he refuses the extension ... absolutely

but does the Benn bill allow that?

 

The people who wrote the Benn Act say that would be against the spirit of the Act and the law,

 

 

O.O

Don't think he would understand the concept of 'spirit of the law' as being anything other than a boon for him to take advantage of.