Article 50 Discussion

[unclebulgaria67]

The point is a well liked MP was killed because of Brexit.

 

A Prime Minister should behave in a way that ensures any debate is as calm as it can be.  To use words such as surrender, traitors etc is not going to lead to a debate about issues which affect most people in the country.

[honeybee13]

And it's not going to bring his party, the House or the country together.

[honeybee13]

I don't know much about this Twitter feed, no10leaks. It has this.

 

@number10leaks 13h

 

Just been told by a spad, Cummings & BJ are planning to #prorogue again from the 19th October to 1st November. It was decided in a private meeting between BJ & DC today. The palace will not be happy.

 

 

[brassnecked]

Johnson and Parliament are now the problem, they are too concerned with biff-bam point scoring whilst the nation goes down the tubes. Only sane BREXIT is/was EEA/EFTA, and it would take years, they all both Leave and Remain see it as an Event rather than a long Process.  A pox on all their houses.

[honeybee13]

I agree, I also think under the impression that we get to the end of October or whenever, and it all goes away. I've read that negotiations after a crash out Brexit will be harder than after reaching a deal.

[cjcregg]

1 hour ago, honeybee13 said:

I don't know much about this Twitter feed, no10leaks. It has this.

 

@number10leaks 13h

 

Just been told by a spad, Cummings & BJ are planning to #prorogue again from the 19th October to 1st November. It was decided in a private meeting between BJ & DC today. The palace will not be happy.

 

 

 

Sounds like complete BS to me.

[London1971]

20 hours ago, BazzaS said:

 

 

I

21 hours ago, honeybee13 said:

 

 

Probs BS, but things are so crazy , you never know

[London1971]

4 hours ago, labrat said:

I was reading down Facebook and saw how many comments against the judges were on there... 

 

I still think mums response to my aunt stands out - aunt railing on about how the judges had no right to stand in the way of brexit

 

Mums response "why complain - you wanted British laws by British people" 

Half the comments on FB, are paid Trolls

[honeybee13]

It still works on some people though, doesn't it?

[London1971]

Some it does, some it doesn't.

 

IMO, nobody is changing their view. They are just becoming more entrenched.

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

I've now come to the inescapable conclusion that Johnson needs to be gone as soon as the extension is confirmed - which needs to be done in the next week.

 

... Even if Corbyn ends up as caretaker for the time limited period for a general election.

 

I've resisted that conclusion as long as i could - but it now clearly seems the lesser evil when compared to Johnson

.. and thats on ALL grounds, not just Brexit.

Edited September 28, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[honeybee13]

You're not alone, TJ. 'Wee Nicola' has said the same thing.

[tobyjugg2]

I can see why with what johnson is demonstrating he is prepared to do.

 

johnson is unfit to be called a human being, let alone a politician

That he is an unelected PM is literally an abomination and shame on the UK's political system.

 

 

Hopefully the latest criminal investigations will get rid of Johnson and trump.

Edited September 28, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[London1971]

It's just too much, Johnson is too much of a liability, election winner or not (highly debatable). A huge number of his own MP's are keeping their own counsel to see what he does at the summit in October, if it's no deal, they will throw him over the edge. Either the 1922 committee , a chunk of his own MP's or the opposition. 

 

I also think that if he allows a no deal that the opposition won't give him his election until 2022, and make him sweat it out.

 

Oh and just watch Javid, Gove, Barclay, Mogg et all stab him in the back multiple times like true Tories.  There is no way that any of these can't be thinking they want to be PM right now.

 

You cannot piss off 70% of the country and get away with it for long.

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2019 by London1971

[Jase1982]

We have to wait and see how boris deals with the BENN law, which had a deadline of the 19th.. legally he cant currently leave us on no deal, and there has today been talk of boris declaring a state of emergency to force through no deal.

 

Also, I read the other day that 8 billion has been bet on the outcome of no deal by various hedge funds that have also coincidentally funded directly or indirectly his leadership bid.

 

We are in moving into proper lack of democracy times, yet still the baying brexit mob cant see how this isn't what they were voting for. 

[London1971]

The braying Brexit mob are not the majority of Brexiters.  Johnson can try a lot of things but a state of Emergency needs to be approved by parliament, try getting that through when you've pissed off nearly everyone.

 

If there are any shenanigans on Oct 19th, stick a fork in him he's done. Only question is, is it the Tories or Opposition who push him.

 

 

[honeybee13]

There are fevered discussions going on about how people think Boris might try to circumvent the Benn Act, prorogations, emergency powers, Henry VIII powers and so on. The SNP are saying a VONC next week is the best way to stop him acting unchecked.

 

Even Phillip Hammond is talking about not recognising the current version of the Tory party and about wealthy hedge fund backers standing to make a fortune from a crash out Brexit.

 

 

[London1971]

He's boxed into a corner. If he lets no deal happen, aside from breaking the law again. Nobody will give him an election, zero chance. His only hope would have been the SNP  to vote for that. On no planet does that happen if he allows a no deal to happen by default.

 

For the next 3 years he will need to deal with the consequences of Brexit. All the blaming the EU, Remainers and parliament etc will only go so far, until the people turn on him . All with an opposition who will thwart his every move.

 

A lot of Tories are staying silent,for the moment  watch them at the Tory party conference, with fake cheers next week. The very same people who will be stabbing him in the back in a few weeks.  They realise he may win a majority this time but if they stick with Johnson, this is the screaming death throes of their party.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2019 by London1971

[honeybee13]

Marina Hyde in the Guardian has an interesting take on what could happen to the Tories if they encourage angry mobs.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/sep/27/tories-dominic-cummings-people-v-parliament-election

[London1971]

Yup, I read that, very true.

 

It's like that scene in the film 'The Queen' when she puts down Tony Blair and tells him ' You won't always be popular' one day the people will turn on you. It won't last for ever.

[tobyjugg2]

In addition to tying up the process in court (lol) until we crash out :

 

The Institute for Government’s Raphael Hogarth posted a good analysis today of five different routes No.10 could take:

1. Send a letter to Brussels asking for an extension. Then send a second letter saying "lol only joking". 

2. Persuade MPs to vote for a deal, but then don’t allow them to vote for the legislation implementing it. 

3. Use an Order of Council to bypass the Queen and suspend the Benn Act. 

4. Use an Order in Council under the Civil Contingencies Act which allows the government to suspend laws to deal with an emergency. 

5. Somewhat ironically, use EU law. "European law usurps British law," a source told City AM. "That means the Article 50 deadline trumps the Benn Act."

But all of these, Hogarth argues, are dead ends. And for what it’s worth, Downing Street said today it did not "recognise" the Order of Council route as floated by Sir John Major last night.

In the Daily Telegraph, Joe Armitage suggests another path. The PM could use the so-called Henry VIII powers included in the EU Withdrawal Act 2018 - which allow ministers to change the law with less parliamentary scrutiny - to amend or abolish the Benn Act.

 

From Paul Waughs' newsletter

 

[postmn]

The problem is what choice is there

1 Labour - Who's going to pay for it all , the countries still paying for the last labout goverment . Since he has apprently got ther SNP on board what has he promised them . And where do they stand on brexit still cannot decide.

2 Lib Dem Well drop the democrat from thier name since they want to ignore a democratic vote 

 

I think most people voted in that it would settle on some wher ein between the two  extremes , however  it seems that was impossible since you have extrmists on both sides of the debate and then you have  parliment that has really covered itself in glory , they cannot decide on any thing . you have a speaker that is not impartial .

 

Then on to the EU all they want is to protect the single market and all thier rules , also to punish a country to god forbide want to leave the EU.

 

So noone comes out of this smelling of roses

 

[fletch70]

9 minutes ago, postmn said:

Quote

 

The problem is what choice is there

1 Labour - Who's going to pay for it all , the countries still paying for the last labout goverment . Since he has apprently got ther SNP on board what has he promised them . And where do they stand on brexit still cannot decide.

 

 

Why do you think the country is paying for the last Labour Government. If you are referring to the global crash - it was just that Global. If you are referring to the Labour Party trying to ramp up public spending to avoid the worst of the recession - well it worked- our recession was much weaker than other countries (Greece, Portugal, Spain to name just three). 

9 minutes ago, postmn said:

Quote

2 Lib Dem Well drop the democrat from thier name since they want to ignore a democratic vote 

 

No they are not ignoring it they are saying that since that vote (and by the way many people were disenfranchised so could not vote) things have changed. More detail has come out, the shape of our future relationship with the EU has become clearer. They are also saying a core policy if they won a majority would be to revoke article 50 - that is absolutely democratic - vote for me and we will do x  

Quote

I think most people voted in that it would settle on some wher ein between the two  extremes , however  it seems that was impossible since you have extrmists on both sides of the debate and then you have  parliment that has really covered itself in glory , they cannot decide on any thing . you have a speaker that is not impartial .

Parliament are doing what they were elected to do which is holding the executive to account - they do not like the deal TM came back with for mixed reasons. Incidentally if it was ok for TM to keep putting her deal to Parliament for a vote wouldn't it therefore be OK to rerun the referendum?

Quote

Then on to the EU all they want is to protect the single market and all thier rules , also to punish a country to god forbide want to leave the EU.

Of course they do - and so would you. 

So noone comes out of this smelling of roses

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

2 hours ago, postmn said:

The problem is what choice is there

1 Labour - Who's going to pay for it all , the countries still paying for the last labout goverment .

 

What utter rubbish.

Whos paying for who's excesses?

 

"The ONS said borrowing in the first five months of the financial year was up 28% on the same period a year ago, at more than £31bn."

 

"UK to struggle to keep deficit below 2% of GDP next year * Deficit for 2018/19 revised up to 1.9% from 1.1% "

 

"the size of the deficit in the last full financial year, 2018-19, has almost doubled. A deficit of £23.6bn has been revised up to £41.3bn."

 

"The government’s fiscal rules stipulate that borrowing in 2020-21 should be below 2% of national output after taking into account the state of the economy. Achieving that would require either spending cuts or tax increases amounting to 0.5% of gross domestic product – about £10bn."

 

 

"Andrew Wishart, the UK economist at Capital Economics, said the existing fiscal target was “dead in the water"

 

 

So Johnson is blowing away even the limited sayings from years of austerity inflicted on the poorest, whilst the rich got richer... and then some

 

and with UK industries collapsing or leaving the UK,

especially arch-Brexiters like Dyson, Rees-Mogg and Redwood

... all that debt is going to be dropped on the future UK generations .. and the poorest of course.

 

 

 

[unsettledchimp]

 Money at the level of Nations is difficult to comprehend.  For the majority of people the only basis of comparison is the ongoing and outgoing of their own bank account.  They equate personal debt with national debt.  I think Boris Johnson is an individual who encourages that thinking.  If you're explaining, you're losing.