Article 50 Discussion

[tobyjugg2]

Too true HB

 

and I wonder how many of the people who are saying everyone 'voted to just leave' have posts in forums saying

'we''ll get all the benefits and everything else, the EU depend on us, we would never have a bonfire of regulations, we would never go to a Singapore tax haven (free port) economy ' etc etc prior to the vote
 

..... that we would see if we bothered to look ....

 

and I don't recall any saying

Why be a senior member of the EU partnership when we can compete with Mexico for the USA's scraps?

[hightail]

4 hours ago, tobyjugg2 said:

On what basis do you present that as any sort of truth other ... than your own personal one?

 

... Rather than that the voters believed they would

Still get ALL the benefits of single market access without the cost

PLUS 350M a week extra for the NHS

PLUS deals ready to go with the rest of the world

Plus existing rights and protections ... protected and secure

PLUS PLUS PLUS

I guess because I'm still clinging on to the hope that so many weren't really so stupid as to believe that was possible. 

[tobyjugg2]

1 hour ago, hightail said:

I guess because I'm still clinging on to the hope that so many weren't really so stupid as to believe that was possible. 

 

So you are hoping that people realised that they were being lied to, but still voted as the liars wanted them too - in the surety that whatever was in the voters own heads, however strange or conflicting,  would be delivered, no matter what was said?

 

so would that vote be given

in the expectation that the liars would deliver the the things they were lying about?

or the expectation that they wouldn't?

 

or could it be either as suites the moment?

 

 

[hightail]

The different lies hit the spot with different people and that I understand.  Who wouldn't want to to save the NHS? (ironic really considering what will probably happen).  I live in one of the fiercest 'leave' areas in the country and there's no way at the time any of the leave voters I know were arguing on the basis of all those lies.  They didn't care if they were truth or lies, they just 'wanted out at any cost'.  That's a phrase I heard - a lot.  Nobody voted for change believing things would stay the same - or at least that's not what they said.

Edited August 16, 2019 by hightail

[tobyjugg2]

Don't dispute that in the slightest.

 

Rhetoric and rabble rousing worked very well in the referendum.

But all the evidence we've seen since shows how that has changed.

 

The unions (apart from unite) , Labour members and Labour Party (apart from Corbyn and a VERY small handful of Labour MP's) - support a referendum and Remain

.. They were touted as Leave majority

 

The voting public may have voted in more Brexit party members in the MEP's,

but voted in 11 LESS anti-EU members -  11 more pro EU members.

 

Peterborough - Large Brexit supporting in the referendum - did NOT vote in the Brexit party.

 

Libdems won in Brecon

 

The motor and Farming industries - apparently heavy Leave voters - are now tasting their own blood and are up in arms.

 

 

All that says that the rhetoric has worn thin - and reasoned thinking says Brexit is BAD

 

 

I'm not saying there are no Brexit supporters out there, there is clearly still a significant noisy minority.

and I think they should have a say in Parliament - if it weren't for the simple fact they can't get enough votes anywhere - which should speak volumes.

 

Before anyone says its not fair that Farages Party has no Mp's

- there are probably at least as many greens in the UK - and long term green supporters, as there are hard Brexiters,

and the greens have 1 MP.

 

 

 

[hightail]

21 minutes ago, tobyjugg2 said:

Peterborough - Large Brexit supporting in the referendum - did NOT vote in the Brexit party.

Don't live a million miles away from there (though not in the same constintuency) and you can't imagine my relief when that particular vote was declared

[London1971]

Interesting poll in the Indy today, only 34% of voters in favour of crashing out without a deal, 49% against.  It will be interesting to see a few more of these, over the coming weeks, to see if it's a trend.  It looks very likely (using electoral calculus) that the Lib Dems will topple one of my local Tory MP's (Chippenham), if there was a GE. She's a rabid no dealer, and the electorate there are not.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/no-deal-brexit-boris-public-opinion-poll-against-delay-cancel-second-referendum-a9062686.html

[brassnecked]

The real danger is the Muppet MP's don't understand EU law, Article 50 is explicit, when the time runs out we are out No Deal is Default, they can only prevent that in three ways

 

1:  Ask for further Extension, no guarantee the Colleagues will agree to that one

2: Ratify the busted WA.

3: Revoke Article 50.

They are going about it the wrong way and have done so since day one.

 

If they did put Corbyn in as caretaker, he would likely dig himself in and do what he wants.  A No Deal suits his nationalisation agenda, much of which would breach EU Law, notwithstanding our Privatised Utilities are in EU Nations company ownership.

 

Of course if Remain and Leave had compromised over a EEA/EFTA solution we wouldn't be in this mess, but Remain have spent the laast 3 years trying to overturn the Referendum result, so we are where we are.

[tobyjugg2]

The Most Important Brexiter Isn’t Boris Johnson

Dominic Cummings is hell-bent on pushing through a no-deal Brexit and ignoring parliament.

 

https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2019-08-16/brexit-architect-cummings-has-radical-no-deal-plans

 

 

" For Cummings, Brexit is a means to a greater end: a complete overhaul of the machinery of government. This might have been started long ago, but Margaret Thatcher, that icon of the British right, didn’t go far enough in Cummings’s view. "

 

" His writings reveal strong views on education reform (he has written controversially that policy-makers too easily discount the role of genetics in achievement) "

 

" Held in contempt of parliament earlier this year, he appears bent on undermining elected lawmakers by persuading his boss to ignore constitutional convention "

[tobyjugg2]

3 hours ago, brassnecked said:

Of course if Remain and Leave had compromised over a EEA/EFTA solution we wouldn't be in this mess, but Remain have spent the laast 3 years trying to overturn the Referendum result, so we are where we are.

 

As we would still need to apply by rules, and those rules include things that the hard Brexiters would

NEVER accept ... just as Remainers would never accept lessthan either what was promised or what we have.

 

 

.. even if some existing members of the 'clubs had already said they didn't want Britain as a member.

 

Its the inevitable result of a referendum run on lies by liars, who then lie about what the people cast their votes based on.

Brexit leaders now largely admit they lied, but carry on not only lying - but protected by the high court - literally above the law.

 

Ridiculous.

 

[brassnecked]

Agree the whole thing has become more like a farce, when will Johnson do a public appearance and his trouswrs will fall down as if he was in a Brian Rix farce?

[tobyjugg2]

Interesting that Johnson is going to see Merkel and Macron.

 

Must be just a goodwill state visit as I'm sure I remember him assuring his Brexit Supporters that there would be no negotiations until the EU removed the backstop ... didn't he?

 

Surely he wasn't lying to them ... as well as everyone else.

 

Ah ... of course he will be negotiating the (none) removal of the backstop .. which doesn't count does it....

 

Edited August 18, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[London1971]

I thought it was all part of the G7 meeting, i.e not about Brexit

[tobyjugg2]

apparently separate to the G7

 

https://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-johnson/johnson-to-meet-macron-merkel-next-week-guardian-idUKKCN1V61RG

 

Johnson, who has said he would not negotiate, is apparently going to tell them that unless they negotiate ...

[tobyjugg2]

An unnamed source is quoted as saying:

 

'Yes, Johnson seems to be implying he wants to renegotiate in 3 weeks something which took his Government

The best part of a year to even start arranging meetings,

More than 2 years to propose anything even the slightest bit meaningful,

Over 3 years to negotiate,

 

.... and it would seem 3 hours at most to renege on.'

 

'We think he has little time left for anything but reneging'

 

[London1971]

plan is No deal, simple!.

 

I hope it backfires and ends up throwing him out of power, but sadly I doubt it

[honeybee13]

There's an interesting article from Gina Miller about what her campaign thinks Boris's plans are. It's scary.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/aug/18/boris-johnson-brexit-ploy-extreme-rightwing-ideology-gina-miller

[London1971]

Perhaps, but all dependent on winning an election, a highly risky one

[brassnecked]

Very scary as IDS's think tank is on about raising Pension Age to 75, as work is "Invigourating" for pensioners.......

[London1971]

Yep, but real change is harder than people assume.  For example Tony Blair didn't change things that much even with a steamroller sized majority over 10 years.  The prime minister, and his pals may have ideas, but it's not going to be straightforward to implement them, it never is.

 

Plus, we are talking like an election majority for the Tories is a given, 

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

Boris Johnson has written to Donald Tusk offering a legally binding commitment to no “infrastructure, checks or controls” at the border between Northern Ireland and Ireland, if Brussels drops the Irish backstop from the withdrawal deal it is offering.

 

So Johnson effectively is offering to

continue to do nothing re the Irish border, as they have continually done nothing in the last three years ... if the EU removes the backstop,

 

BARGAIN ... not

 

 

France has apparently implemented the required customs controls to deal with no deal Brexit Britain.

 

Shame Britain has failed to implement the 'suggested' technological solution to the Irish border issue in the last 3 years they have already had, 

and do seem utterly certain it wouldn't in the next two years .. else the backstop wouldn't be an issue.

 

and of course if Britain failed to implement their own suggested technological solution to the Irish border in the 2 years of the withdrawel agreement (on top of the three years they have already had) then any continuance of the backstop would have been due to that failure by the British government ... Nothing else.

 

 

 

 

 

Edited August 20, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[honeybee13]

Boris's border suggestions read like smoke and mirrors to me, I can't make head nor tail of what he's said.

 

Does anyone know of a UK government IT project that's been delivered on time and works properly? AFAIK they haven't even started to design one for the border.

[hightail]

10 minutes ago, honeybee13 said:

Does anyone know of a UK government IT project that's been delivered on time and works properly?

Well HB, something had to make me burst out laughing through this debacle and you've managed it.

[honeybee13]

  I try.

[tobyjugg2]

56 minutes ago, honeybee13 said:

Boris's border suggestions read like smoke and mirrors to me, I can't make head nor tail of what he's said.

 

Does anyone know of a UK government IT project that's been delivered on time and works properly? AFAIK they haven't even started to design one for the border.

 

 

Simple translation. Boris says:

 

Trust me,

Don't worry about the EU border, a magical unicorn will fly down from its nest in the DUP's magic free money tree and fix it all by doing something else entirely.

 

 

Of course most people stopped listening by the second word.