Article 50 Discussion

[honeybee13]

I had the same thought, TJ, he was just adding to the traffic in Kent, which was going to have the worst problems anyway. It seems a needless waste of money to me.

[fletch70]

At least in my area today we only have the three choices, in fact for the Parish council, only the Lib Dems fielded enough candidates for all the posts. 

 

As for the nationalisation argument, it fails at every turn. While nationalisation of and state financial subsidies for an industry may need questioning, you most certainly can have nationalised businesses. 

 

Many European states have a nationalised rail carrier and Croatia has a nationalised ferry . They can however run alongside private competitors.

 

Certainly when looking at Croatia, it seems to be the private ferry companies run smaller faster more expensive services while the state run slower larger cheaper ferries. 

[tobyjugg2]

I seem to just have labour or tories

 

 

Also interesting that most headlines are reporting the expected tory trouncing as

'anger at Brexit delay.

Rather than

Anger at complete shambles on everything not least the war in their own party, but mainly the mushroom management and BS tactics being fed the population

 

 

Of course, low turnouts favour the zealots ..

 

You can be sure every kipper, BNP, NF ERG EDL and Corbinite will be out in force.

 

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[London1971]

Just now, tobyjugg2 said:

I seem to just have labour or tories

 

 

Also interesting that most headlines are reporting the expected tory trouncing as

'anger at Brexit delay.

Rather than

Anger at complete shambles on everything not least the war in their own party, but mainly the mushroom management and BS tactics being fed the population

 

 

Of course, low turnouts favour the zealots ..

 

 

 

Tory Right wing press, typical headline.

 

[tobyjugg2]

 

even so called Remain supporting papers

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-news-live-local-elections-theresa-may-delay-gavin-williamson-mordaunt-a8895866.html

 

 

[London1971]

Indy has lost the plot in recent years, they are clickbait city

[tobyjugg2]

With results coming in its interesting how they are being reported

 

eg

Bath and North East Somerset, the former Tory leader said that councillors were told on the streets that people "couldn't trust the Conservatives any more" because of Brexit.

Here, the Conservatives lost 25 seats and the Lib Dems gained 20.  Tandridge, in Surrey, is a seat that the party had controlled since 2000. The party lost eight seats here, six to Independents and two to the Lib Dem’s in what Sam Gyimah MP described as “disappointing but not surprising”.

" The party have also performed badly in Brexit voting areas. In Chelmsford, where 52.8 per cent of voters supported Leave in the referendum, the Tories lost 31 seats - with 26 seats going to the Lib Dems and five to Independents."

 

Early days yet,

but that sort of vote pattern says to me, considering that the Lib Dems are qualifiedly Remain,

that Brexit voting areas have changed their mind and would vote remain...

 

 

 

 

[London1971]

That would indeed be very interesting.

 

Each day that Brexit is delayed, it becomes that little bit less likely to actually happen

Each time the ERG try some trick to depose Theresa May, they become weaker

The very fact the Euro Elections are happening is a massive body blow to Brexit

Today's results are a blow for the Brexit supporting parties.

Each day new young Remain trending voters enter the electorate

Each day older Brexit trending voters leave the electorate.

 

IMO Brexit is dying a death by a thousand cuts.

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by London1971

[tobyjugg2]

too true

 

interesting that the news services are bringing the Tory Brexiters out who are saying the voters are saying they want rid of May - implying replacing her with a brexiter is what the public is saying

 

With results so far (which may change) as all the Brexit Parties - Tory, Labour and Ukip are losing seats

.. seems to me the public are saying get rid of the treacherous brexiters who sold us a pup.

 

 

[London1971]

Yup, the Tory Brexiters are seeing this as a job interview by looking tough in front of their Geriatric Brexit supporting party members. The national interest has been thrown out of the window.

[tobyjugg2]

Just listening to some complete prat on BBC saying that the lib dems have 'only mainly gained support in areas where they already had a base ...

 

Duhhhhh

 

Because where they have no existing base, they aren't fielding candidates,

like here where I am

interesting that a number of those at my polling station were saying they didnt want to vote for either the Tories or Labour which was the only choice.

 

all of our candidates are just muppet drones who just point to the labour/tory page for nondescript 'policies'

 

 

 

Edited May 3, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[London1971]

Yup, everyone is trying to spin the results to their advantage, which is pretty normal.

[tobyjugg2]

This is interesting

 

" pollster Matt Singh wrote on Thursday,

opposition parties heading for national office typically win by big margins of 10 to 20 percentage points in local elections, as Labour did in the mid-1990s and the Conservatives did in the late 2000s.

Oppositions heading for defeat at the next general election usually win the estimated popular vote narrowly.

That would suggest Corbyn isn’t well served by a general election now, with his party divided over Brexit and the party’s message still deliberately ambiguous."

 

and with the votes seeming to swing to anti Brexit

especially as low turnouts (if it is) normally favours the nationalist populist votes ...

 

Labour and the Tories would likely BOTH lose lots of seats in a general election.

Darn good thing too in most scenarios.

 

Of course UKIP was always generally just the nasty bit of the nasty party -

perhaps Kremlin quality political manoeuvring from Farage there with his 'new' Brexit party ...

[London1971]

I think that analysis is right in 'normal' times.  However, Brexit has changed everything, so nothing is certain anymore. Plus issues are different in a General elections, we under estimate the number of people sick of Austerity, and Social care policies not being addressed. 

 

I do think though that the Tories are desperate to avoid a general election, as the chances are the results will either be the same as now, or a Labour narrow victory.  Much less risky for them to struggle on until 2022, or try to at least!

[Jase1982]

Still the Maybot is plowing ahead with her "we must deliver the brexit people voted for" default setting.  I'd say that clearly the biggest gains yesterday were the Lib Dems, and they are a party of remain.  It would be interesting to see how many people went in and deliberately spoiled their ballet papers; if they publish the figures.

 

More evidence that Brexit is being pushed forward by controlling forces none of us have any contact with.

[tobyjugg2]

and May just on news interprets all the Brexit parties being trounced

and the Remain Party being the main beneficiaries as:

 

'The people are telling us to get on with Brexit

 

What planet is she on?

 

Corbyn is no better

 

 

[London1971]

Yup the wishes of the 16 million who voted against completely ignored.

[hightail]

2 hours ago, Jase1982 said:

Still the Maybot is plowing ahead with her "we must deliver the brexit people voted for" default setting. 

Exactly what brexit did the people vote for?  Am I the only one who had a simple yes/no option in the referendum.  Did leave voters have an option to pen an essay outlining exactly what sort of brexit they were voting for? 

[honeybee13]

I agree, hightail.

 

The vote was only yes or no without knowing what the options were.

[tobyjugg2]

May to Draft New Customs Law for Brexit Deal With Corbyn in attempt to get Brexit through

 

Source: Bloomberg newsletter 

 

 

" The move is an attempt to meet a key demand from Jeremy Corbyn’s Labour party, which has said it wants to protect jobs and trade "

 

 

Of course, Mays colander cabinet has leaked this perhaps in an attempt to damage Corbyn perhaps just to sink the back door deal

 

Mcdonnal is in uproar about the leak as it will likely cause revolt among the Labour plebs who should not have been informed until it was too late.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[honeybee13]

And is this one going to expire in a couple of years too?

 

May must think Labour are daft. If they actually  sign anything that protects jobs, etc, they won't want it torn up as soon as an ERG type replaces Treeza.

[honeybee13]

What are the chances of them reaching a compromise that Europe won't accept?

 

Interesting article from the Guardian about the Conservatives' approach so far.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2019/may/06/emerging-labour-tory-compromise-brexit-mirage

[tobyjugg2]

absolutely to both posts

 

Its as much of a win win win for May as she could hope for.

 

* Offers nothing which can't be torrn up - and apparently defines that (Labour can pursue their options if elected, Tories pursue theirs)

 

*Potentially gets her deal passed - which leaves all tearing up of everything on the table EXCEPT that we would have then LEFT THE EU and in the so far meaningless transition - done.

Options regarding a new referendum dead - we won't get our existing deal again.

 

* Even if it gets nowhere - the fact that Corbyn is talking about this - and whinging about leaks damages him and the Labour party no end.

 

She's banking on Corbyns clear desire to get out at any cost

- like the ERG who is driving the Tory party

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

Tell you what:

Prediction:

 

Despite the Labour party waffling about giving the people a say, which Corbyn is clearly resisting tooth and nail,

I'll bet that its the Tories who end up doing that, while corbyn fights tooth and nail to prevent it - hence making Labour look like a bunch of ineffective self serving useless terse-pots

and show the tories the Party of leadership despite any Tory civil war.

 

The Tories will whup labour despite fighting itself and Labour at the same time..

.. So the Tories will quickly recover even if some utter TossPort like Johnson gets in after

- Labour wont - thanks to Corbyn.

 

[tobyjugg2]

Well the details of the Americans 'aspirations' for a UK-US post Brexit deal are coming out:

and along with the expected chlorine washed chicken and beef in hormone sauce

 

* “Ensure that the UK does not impose measures that restrict cross-border data flows”

– ending current restrictions the UK imposes as a member of the European Economic Area (EEA).

 

so there goes your data protection and EU data sharing

 

 

 

* “Provide full market access for US products”

– eg in favour of US-style direct-marketing of drugs. - the most expensive in the world.

- so there goes the NHs, and for a far more expensive alternative.

and there goes source labeling.

so there goes anything other than external access to the EU market

 

 

 

In addition to the expected labeling reductions so you can't tell which chicken is NOT American chlorine washed:

* Ensure remanufactured goods for export “are not classified as used goods that are restricted or banned”

– not even those containing asbestos fibres, it was argued.

So get you can unlabelled US remanufactured childs toys made with built in asbestos

again - there goes anything other than external access to the EU market

 

 

and this one

* Allow the US to ditch the trade deal if it objects to the terms of any other UK agreement with a “non-market economy” - whatever the US might decide that is at any time

 

- Now that IS vassalage

especially when you consider that a number of the US requirements are completely incompatible with EU regulations AND ARE NOT and WILL NOT BE IN THE EU-US DEAL

 

So they make us incompatible with the EU's regulations, and can dump and change our agreement as they please.

 

 

Thats not even US state status - its slave state status

All the risks and downsides - NONE of the benefits

TRUE Vassalage

 

yay usa - NOT

 

 

 

a simple summary but google the detail

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-trade-deal-us-chlorine-chicken-nhs-drug-costs-a8803086.html