Article 50 Discussion

[unclebulgaria67]

The question I have always asked myself, is whether Jeremy Corbyn has really change his mind on the EU ? For decades Corbyn campaigned against the EU, as it prevented countries from pursuing economic policies such as state investment in failing industries. 

 

Corbyn also believes in Parliamentary democracy and that the referendum instructed Parliament to pursue Brexit. 

 

Taking both into account, I suspect that Corbyn does not really care whether the current Government gets their withdrawal deal through Parliament or not. It is purely about damaging the Tories as much as possible, which means Labour appealing to both Leave and Remain voters. Corbyn will try to explain to Leave voters that he wants Labour to be able negotiate a Labour version of Brexit ( customs agreement, close alignment to EU single market, agreement on workers & other rights, ability for UK Government to be able to nationalise important assets e.g. Water, power supply, transport assets & support UK industry). Corbyn will also explain to Remain supporters that he wants to put his EU deal back to voters in a confirmatory referendum, with Remain also on the ballot papers.

 

A good strategy to obtain more votes ?

 

 

[London1971]

Yup,

 

The Tories are on their knees right now, why would Labour want to prop them up?

 

I think right now Labour are dragging the negotiations out, then wait and see results of the local / Euro elections.  Corbyn also knows it's a huge humiliation for the Tories to even be taking part in the Euro's.  So it's wins all around for Labour, and a possible General Election at the end of it, Labour likely to win.

 

 

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

1 hour ago, unclebulgaria67 said:

The question I have always asked myself, is whether Jeremy Corbyn has really change his mind on the EU ? For decades Corbyn campaigned against the EU, as it prevented countries from pursuing economic policies such as state investment in failing industries. 

 

Corbyn also believes in Parliamentary democracy and that the referendum instructed Parliament to pursue Brexit. 

 

Taking both into account, I suspect that Corbyn does not really care whether the current Government gets their withdrawal deal through Parliament or not. It is purely about damaging the Tories as much as possible, which means Labour appealing to both Leave and Remain voters. Corbyn will try to explain to Leave voters that he wants Labour to be able negotiate a Labour version of Brexit ( customs agreement, close alignment to EU single market, agreement on workers & other rights, ability for UK Government to be able to nationalise important assets e.g. Water, power supply, transport assets & support UK industry). Corbyn will also explain to Remain supporters that he wants to put his EU deal back to voters in a confirmatory referendum, with Remain also on the ballot papers.

 

A good strategy to obtain more votes ?

 

 

 

I fundamentally disagree on that interpretation of his drivers Unclebulgaria.

 

 

I have no doubts whatsoever that Corbyn is 'simply' frustrating the labour parties stated policies and deliberately helping and enabling others (Fargage, May, anybody) as much as possible to drive the hard Brexit he daren't come out on.

 

.. and thereby proving his stated goals that drove his leadership campaign - for a honest Labour party driven by the Party and its members and NOT lead by some ideologue - as nothing more than the same sort of dishonest politicking that drove the Leave campaign.

 

 

No doubts whatsoever.

 

[buckthorn]

 

This is what is called being a independent country is it????????

What the hell did we fight two world wars for???????

 

[tobyjugg2]

Wow

Does that mean we can ALL vote SNP

 

Get rid of labour, Tories, Farage

AND solve the Scottish independence issue all at once.

 

 

YAAAYYYYYYY

[honeybee13]

I hope Farage stays long enough with this party to contest the election next month.

 

Does the Brexit party have any policies about what would happen after Brexit?

[tobyjugg2]

" "This party is not here just to fight the European elections... this party is not just to express our anger - 23 May is the first step of the Brexit Party. We will change politics for good."

 

 

"Farage told BBC Radio 4's Today programme: "In terms of policy, there's no difference (to UKIP), but in terms of personnel there is a vast difference."

 

"UKIP leader Gerard Batten tweeted that Mr Farage's suggestion that there was no difference in policy between UKIP and the Brexit Party was "a lie".

He said: "UKIP has a manifesto and policies. Farage's party is just a vehicle for him."

 

 

 

On the actual issue of a Brexit Party manifesto,

apart from the above and Farage otherwise avoiding answering about any actual policies or manifesto - nothing but avoidance and jargon as far as I see.

Anyone else found anything?

 

 

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47907350

 

https://www.indy100.com/article/nigel-farage-brexit-party-eu-election-manifesto-8883971

 

 

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

Nothing on their web site either apart from a rather (sic) amusing

 

" We need your help to send a clear message to the establishment.  "

 

Well Nigel, I think

" We need help to send a clear message" 

would have said it in fewer words, although that would be honest rather than politic and wouldn't rouse the rabble would it.

 

 

Problem is, clear messages need policies and qualifications, and farage has NEVER had use for those, So he has undoubtedly got that right from a 'preach to the converted and rouse the rabble' point of view.

He knows it works.

 

 

[unclebulgaria67]

Could any Brexit lead to the break up of the United Kingdom ? It would ironic, if the UK wanting independence from the EU, brought about a break up of the United Kingdom.  The latest polling from Scotland suggest no current majority for Scots independence, but Brexit actually happening could change that.

 

The more worrying problem is peace and security in Ireland. Nobody wants a return to the past troubles.

[tobyjugg2]

Brexit is completely marginalising and isolating 'England/Westminster, not just in the UK but across the world

 

We see there are no deals across the world,

not even our existing WTO preferential deals as it stands as was always stated by other than Brexit loons.

Manufacturing, REAL investment and  financial services are leaving wholesale.

Lose Lose Lose.

 

 

The Americans have VERY clearly doubled down with Ireland - as they always have

No deals with the UK if there are issues with the border and peace process

I think the Americans would look to a unified Ireland to relegate the 'English' partner status to an also ran - especially if Scotland left - the Northern waters and Arctic passage ...

Lose Lose

 

 

I think that there is no doubt whatsoever that both Scotland and Ireland will leave the UK post Brexit.

 

 

 

Disappointing to see how limited my options for voting are in local elections to express my choice.

 

Some are trying to say that local issues should not be about Brexit, think local

but Brexit DEFINES what will be possible and the future for us all (except the few)

.. and with

 

Tories

Labour (yes it is - Corbyn will almost certainly weasel word even a decision today)

UKIP

Brexit Party

ALL being Brexit ...

 

I have no-one to vote for locally.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 30, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[hightail]

2 hours ago, tobyjugg2 said:

I have no-one to vote for locally. 

Neither do I.  Two Conservative candidates on the list as far as I can see and that's all.  Is it worth going along to spoil a paper?  Seems very wrong not to bother at all but what's the point.

[tobyjugg2]

so all largely as predicted

 

To slightly paraphrase Manuel Cortes, the TSSA’s general secretary,

 

“Labour’s latest Brexit fudge”, adding that the party’s “unicorn demands” for a Brexit deal, would “in effect make us a rule-taker colony of Brussels”.

- like Mays deal

 

“That’s the naked truth and we have missed an opportunity to tell it to voters like it is".

 

Now I think this defines the choices quite well:

 

A stark choice

– A no-deal economic crash

- Vassalage with reduced influence, benefits and economy (Mays deal or Corbyns undefined unicorn)

- or "the best option, no Brexit at all"

 

 

 

I'm going just to spoil my vote slip with 'none of the above'

Edited May 1, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[honeybee13]

I can't remember if they publish the number of spoiled votes, TJ, do you know?

[tobyjugg2]

the following article is informative I think HB

 

Clearly strike through all the options and write NONE

It can then be identified as a protest vote.

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/voices/if-there-s-no-one-you-could-stand-to-vote-for-spoil-your-ballot-today-and-let-your-disillusionment-a7014786.html

 

http://www.votenone.org.uk/protest_votes_count.html

 

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

The great fear of course is that by doing so, the reasonable folk just leave the voting to the extremists.

[honeybee13]

You're right.

[London1971]

My parent's in law vote every time since escaping from the former Soviet Union in 1974 because they do not take this valuable right for granted, like we do.  It's ridiculous to spoil a ballot!

[honeybee13]

I can see their point, London. Also, in the scheme of things, it's not all that long since women fought and died to get the vote.

[tobyjugg2]

Interesting that Farages' Brexit Party is fielding a candidate in the North who was an apologist for the IRA bombing that killed 3 and 12 year old children in Warrington.

 

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-party-claire-fox-ira-bombing-warrington-father-colin-parry-a8893796.html

 

 

"Claire Fox, now a candidate for the (BREXIT party)  European Parliament, was a member of the Revolutionary Communist Party (RCP), that defended the deadly bomb attack in Warrington on 20 March, 1993."

 

" Warrington councillor Dan Price said Ms Fox was “totally unfit for office” "

 

"Ms Fox is now the Brexit Party’s top candidate in the North West of England at the European elections.

If the polls are correct, she is likely to become Warrington’s MEP."

 

 

Madness.

[London1971]

The fact that these elections are being fought at all is a huge victory for anyone who supports a soft Brexit,  remain or a second referendum and a huge loss for chaps like Farage and those Nice ERG chaps.

[hightail]

34 minutes ago, honeybee13 said:

Also, in the scheme of things, it's not all that long since women fought and died to get the vote.

Exactly which is why it doesn't sit well with me not to turn up.  However, in my case I have the choice between a self-satisfied racist and ........................................... another self-satisfied racist.  How is it ridiculous not to vote for either of them?

[London1971]

Damn, is it that bad where you are? Hopefully someone better will throw their hat into the ring.  The Remain oriented parties are doing a terrible job of marketing themselves

[tobyjugg2]

Not a great step forward if the Brexit party wins

 

Now I WILL be making a very clear vote in the MEP elections

and it WONT be for (worst at the top)

 

Brexit party

UKIP

Tories aka ERG

Labour aka Corbyn

 

 

Edited May 1, 2019 by tobyjugg2

[tobyjugg2]

https://www.channel4.com/news/by/gary-gibbon/blogs/chief-whip-to-cabinet-we-need-labour-dont-hide-under-the-duvet

 

https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/brexit-deal-customs-union-theresa-may-corbyn-labour-trade-eu-a8894546.html

 

 

" One source said the improvement in the talks which Labour and Tory sources claimed had happened at yesterday’s session was helped by an earlier private meeting between Michael Gove and Seumas Milne. No-one was able to confirm that had taken place but several people thought it would make a good short play. "

 

" Theresa May has admitted she could agree to stay in a customs union in a bid to rescue Brexit "

 

 

 

Corbyn very well might be on the brink of a complete sell out of the party and members..

 

 

[tobyjugg2]

One thing that got me when I first heard about Graylings utterly cretinous no deal Brexit ferry plans

 

It isnt even that he awarded millions of pound contracts to companies who had no ferries

 

or that he 'organised it so badly and in breach of existing agreements that he had to give compensation to eurotunnel - with more massive compensation claims to come

 

and certainly not that it would seem the UK taxpayer will probably end up £100M+ out of pocket for nothing - as even competent contingency plans can result in that

 

 

 

I'm still waiting for someone to explain how miles of tailbacks of lorries etc due to extra checks at customs

... the other side of customs checks from any boarding dock or ferry

... is resolved or in any way improved by having more ferries available?

 

Seems to me LESS ferries would be needed

at least until the border security/customs check processes and systems caught up with the extra workload

 

What have I misunderstood?

 

Edited May 2, 2019 by tobyjugg2