Article 50 Discussion

[unclebulgaria67]

I find Labours position completely stupid. One referendum is apparently the will of the people and it must be implemented. They will try to influence government, but if the Brexit deal is bad for the country they won't try to intervene to stop it.

 

Not just Labour, but many Politicians and some media want to make Parliament irrelevant.

[tobyjugg2]

I find Labours position completely stupid. One referendum is apparently the will of the people and it must be implemented. They will try to influence government, but if the Brexit deal is bad for the country they won't try to intervene to stop it.

 

Not just Labour, but many Politicians and some media want to make Parliament irrelevant.

 

But Unc.

Its 'the will of the people' as interpreted by each individual there, even if its completely at odds with what the people think their will is ...

just like the massive pay increases for MP's despite 'all being in it together'

.. must have been the will of the people

 

David Davis couldn't have said it better after the court decision where he said in the Commons, the judges were “not the Enemies of the People, quite the converse”

.. How true - it is the politicians who are the enemies of the people.

[tobyjugg2]

Lets just put the Votes in real context.

 

46,500,001 total voters

 

17,410,742 Voted Leave

16,141,241 Voted Remain

12,948,018 Did not vote for EITHER option for whatever reason

 

So More representative, and far more clearly explaining the conflict and enduring dissatisfaction across the whole of the UK is

 

29,089,259 (63% - a clear majority) DID NOT vote to Leave

30,358,760 (65% - a clear majority) DID NOT vote to Remain

 

So the only thing we can be sure of is that a MAJORITY of the UKs voters DID NOT vote for either option

 

So Either of the options as offered can only represent a minority view as it stands.

 

LOL and here it is in the guardian, although I think they should have used more of my post in that the majority did NOT vote for EITHER choice.

 

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2017/jan/25/parliament-brexit-supreme-court-article-50-europe

[tobyjugg2]

https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2017/jan/27/frankfurt-brexit-bankers-london-boring

 

Frankfurt prepares for Brexit bankers: 'Maybe our city will change them'

 

 

 

 

good luck with that Frankfurt ...

[tobyjugg2]

A labour MP with conscience and clearly some of the biggest gonads in the party

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/26/labour-mp-tulip-siddiq-resigns-from-frontbench-over-article-50-vote

 

{Applause}

[tobyjugg2]

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/01/27/governments-secret-300000-overseas-teacher-recruitment-drive/?ncid=newsletter-uk

[citizenB]

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/education/2017/01/27/governments-secret-300000-overseas-teacher-recruitment-drive/?ncid=newsletter-uk

 

 

This is disgraceful.

[Guest]

now that is funny.

'brexit means brexit' the pm has kept saying, but is it more a case of it means;“Nnnnng. Urggggh. Bleugggh,”...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/26/brexit-david-davis-house-of-commons-select-committee

[tobyjugg2]

now that is funny.

'brexit means brexit' the pm has kept saying, but is it more a case of it means;“Nnnnng. Urggggh. Bleugggh,”...

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/jan/26/brexit-david-davis-house-of-commons-select-committee

 

 

Actually, in UK politician terms, she was telling the whole truth

 

Brexit means Brexit

.. We leave, Goodbye, No deal (except for some select few which doesn't include you voters)

 

Free market

Free Tax haven for the rich, who are free to get the cheapest labour, goods and material from China or India, or wherever ( and be damned to you voters - its what you voted for) and free to sell it to whoever can afford it (which wont be you voters)

[Guest]

and turkey....

initially a defence deal re developing fighter jets for turkey (perhaps for use in syria for one eg.... ). but also re increased future trade, which wld no doubt involve free movement of turkish nationals. turkey cant even get into the eu....is that something brexitors want(ed).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38779669

[tobyjugg2]

and turkey....

initially a defence deal re developing fighter jets for turkey (perhaps for use in syria for one eg.... ). but also re increased future trade, which wld no doubt involve free movement of turkish nationals. turkey cant even get into the eu....is that something brexitors want(ed).

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-38779669

 

worth £100M - thats 1 jet isnt it?

 

No worse than selling cluster bombs, Typhoons and brimstones to the Sauds and training their pilots in the UK

and certainly less profitable.

 

UK for hire

Need a tax haven, or a Brimstone missile - UK plc is open for business

[fletch70]

Slightly off Topic but have you noticed which of those nasty countries have been left off the list of excluded countries by Trump. Funny that isnt it. Didn't Bin Laden come from there?

[Guest]

Slightly off Topic but have you noticed which of those nasty countries have been left off the list of excluded countries by Trump. Funny that isnt it. Didn't Bin Laden come from there?

'As for why Trump left countries like Saudi Arabia, the United Arab Emirates, and Egypt off the list, it’s known and documented. According to New York Daily News, “Trump’s sprawling business empire — which he has refused to rescind ownership of — holds multi-million dollar licensing and development deals in all of those countries.”

All three of those countries have been the nationalities of the people behind the majority of terrorist attacks on the United States, according to Al Jazeera.'

perhaps one for the con theories thread, or the kong thread.

[tobyjugg2]

Stupid politicians still waffling on about wanting more than just a accept reject vote on EU deal (or no deal)

 

What are they on about

 

EU says no deal. so UK parliament says to May 'thats not good enough go back and ask again.'

May says' EU still says still no deal - goodbye'

So UK parliament says 'try again'

 

These idiots still seem to be running on the UKIP/Gove/Johnson rhetoric (aka Bulldung) that they are desperate to give us anything we want and some strange notion that the UK is in the drivers seat here - other driving off into the distance in a car thats low on fuel and supplies

Well dont worry - cars are gravity powered when they go off a cliff.

 

 

and whats the alternative?

May tells them that EU says we can stay part of the single market, but the terms wont be as good as they were ....

 

,, and of course the UK cant have its own free trade deals with India and China AND the EU as that would effectively give India and China free trade deals with the EU through the UK and destroy the EU's existing EU market - dont be silly.

 

 

You expect the public to be a bit lax and clueless about these issues - but politicians????

What the ...

[Guest]

and turkey....

....

ah, it makes sense now.

the pretender may said turkey is one of our 'oldest friends' etc......beeb link above

and now (soon after their meet), T says the same ...http://edition.cnn.com/2017/02/08/politics/trump-erdogan-call/

'President Donald Trump reiterated US support for Turkey as a "close, long-standing" partner,......Trump welcomed Turkey's efforts in the battle against ISIS, according to a White House readout of the conversation...'

 

though, apparently T said about a year ago; 'whilst turkey has been a good partner '...…. Turkey looks like they’re on the side of ISIS, more or less, based on the oil.”

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/12/01/donald-trump-take-oil-isis/

 

 

one for the con theories thread perhaps

[Guest]

 

one for the con theories thread perhaps

another conflict about oil. sounds familiar. at least he's open about it...'Trump added, “I’ve been saying for years, attack the oil. But I said a step further, attack it but keep it. I want to keep the oil.” (from the link above)

[tobyjugg2]

 

though, apparently T said about a year ago; 'whilst turkey has been a good partner '...…. Turkey looks like they’re on the side of ISIS, more or less, based on the oil.”

http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2015/12/01/donald-trump-take-oil-isis/

 

Turkey is always on turkeys side.

Turkeys goal was further land grab in Syria, ... and Iraq if possible.

 

To this end they needed rid of Assad

Turkeys Al nusra radicals were used to escalate the other radicals into a force good enough to destablilize Assads regime and wipe out Turkeys enemies the Kurds.

 

That all came unstuck when Russia neutralised the US coalitions air protection of the radicals expansion,

It all became big news and with the US not wanting to start open war with Russia, Turkey was pretty much left on its own progressing the original plan.

 

With Russias very speedy success against daesh and Turkeys al-nusra (and other armed rebel groups) and highlighting the nusra/daesh oil trade through Turkey,

and Russia moving cruise missile (nuke capable) warships/subs into the med after Turkeys deliberate near escalation to WW3 - the achievable goalpost changed. The firing of Russian cruise missiles from the subs really woke up the west to Russias capabilities.

 

Turkey still pressed for war against Russia and Assad + Hexbollah and Iran but has eventually (after effectively being deserted by the US and having the patriot missile systems removed from Turkey and Israel continuing only to significantly act against Hezbollah) Turkey has done a deal with Russia.

 

Turkey will get a buffer zone in the North, which they will forever resist giving back.

They will now move heaven and earth to prevent the creation of a REAL Kurdish state even with the buffer zone.

 

Russia avoids the constant and immediate risk of war with a Nato member although it still is there - just not so immediate.

 

Trump (or at least the US military is loath to give up the possibilities that Turkey potentially gives them - and they are fools - Turkeys price will always be too high

 

The Cyprus issue may yet escalate tensions again too.

[tobyjugg2]

Must get around to reading this

http://www.bloomsbury.com/uk/the-great-deception-9781472939661/

 

http://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1005561.The_Great_Deception

[citizenB]

 

More than one in three businesses have already been negatively hit by the decision to leave the European Union, a study has revealed.

The fall in sterling has especially affected small companies that rely on imported goods, said accountants Moore Stephens.

Small- to medium-sized companies have been forced to raise prices or suffered a cut in profits, said the report

 

http://money.aol.co.uk/2017/02/12/third-of-businesses-already-feeling-brexit-pain/

 

 

I don't understand this - if imported components have increased in price - why not simply start buying from a UK supplier - they will likely pay the same price and save on delivery costs and atmospheric polluting ?

[Guest]

i dont understand all the crisis headlines from exitors re the NHS, the nhs will be 50m/week better off just now after exit....

[unclebulgaria67]

I don't understand this - if imported components have increased in price - why not simply start buying from a UK supplier - they will likely pay the same price and save on delivery costs and atmospheric polluting ?

 

Not everything will be available from a UK supplier.

 

If you are building a car for example, i suspect the steel is coming from China or elsewhere, because not enough is produced in the UK at the cost required. Most of the parts will include raw materials from outside of the UK.

 

Same issue with other industries such as medicines, where they might be invented in the UK but the ingredients come from many different parts of the world.

 

Brexit will cause so many problems, that before any deal is negotiated the public are going to start demanding government stops the process. I believe this is what Theresa May is waiting for. She has to proceed with Brexit per the referendum, but i think she would be happy to have reason to stop the process. Given how toxic the EU is to the Tory party and right wing media, there would need to be very good reason not to continue.

[tobyjugg2]

I don't understand this - if imported components have increased in price - why not simply start buying from a UK supplier - they will likely pay the same price and save on delivery costs and atmospheric polluting ?

 

 

Because the UK suppliers dont make them and it would cost more to start up the businesses to make them than the extra cost due to the falling pound ..

Plus the businesses dont want to invest for a much smaller market |(UK not EU)

 

 

Just like loans will cost more as the bankers here will pay tarrifs to trade in the EU (after a possible sliding increase over a couple of years)

 

Similarly, Why not just get Germany to lend the money to EU businesses..

Because the EU requires banking businesses to be able to support themselves and avoid profiteering with a state guarantee that the nations taxpayers will pay when the excesses cause another collapse ...

This cuts into the businesses profits and increases the cost and risk to the profiteers - which is why all the international banks would prefer to stay in the poorly regulated and policed UK where the taxpayer will pick up the pieces when it all goes bosoms up time and again,

[tobyjugg2]

Well it now looks certain that the UK will brexit with no deal other than perhaps a few reciprocals like ex pat rights as

 

EU states no trade deal until Brexit negotiations complete (of course)

 

UK to pay approx 59B as part of Brexit to cover various ongoing UK cost commitments (Little doubt the Tories will take this OUT of the NHS and care and local services budget)

 

 

Based on only about a third of the UK actually voting for Brexit,

 

Long past time the actual voice of the people was heard

[tobyjugg2]

http://uk.reuters.com/article/uk-britain-eu-lloyds-banking-idUKKBN15S20H

 

Lloyds Bank closes in on Berlin as post-Brexit EU hub:

[unclebulgaria67]

I noticed on my recent visit to a Supermarket that the price of most items had increased because of the reduced currency value after the Brexit vote.

 

Rolls Royce has just announced their biggest loss, again most of it relates to big reduction in Pounds Sterling.

 

UK Banks are still in a mess, with RBS probably years away from being profitable again and Government not willing to sell shares at a big loss. Barclays, Lloyds and HSBC still have ongoing problems with fines by US regulators and others about their previous business practices. Tax revenues from Banking are going to be pretty poor.

 

Exporters might have gained a temporary boost because they could sell their goods more attractively at a cost advantage to foreign competitors. But once they start to see increased cost of imported materials feed through to their accounts, then any advantage of a lower Pound Sterling rate is going to be wiped out.

 

Investors in the UK are going to be put off by uncertainty regarding the type of Brexit. If you are a UK producer selling goods into the EU, then you are going to be cautious about how much you invest during the next 2 years. They will cut back on buying new equipment and recruiting new staff.

 

Once all these issues feed into UK economic performance and people start to see the consequences of Brexit, they are going to be damanding that the Governments halts the process. I can see this happening within the next 12 months.