Article 50 Discussion

[king12345]

So King

You are suggesting that all Italians here are economic migrants, here for a better life and to earn more money?

 

Yes, otherwise why would they come here?

For the weather???

[obiter dictum]

Are all British immigrants settled in spain there as economic Migrants then King??

 

But i have to ask, what has this got to do with implemention and procedure with Article 50?

[fletch70]

Yes, otherwise why would they come here?

For the weather???

 

Oh of course I forgot

It is always sunny in Italy

Venice doesn't stink in the summer

Rome isn't full pickpockets

Hot summers

Mild Winters

 

See if I can think of any other stereotypes

 

No natural disasters

 

Maybe, some come here as a stage in a career and stay, not because of the weather or the income but for other reasons

[king12345]

Oh of course I forgot

It is always sunny in Italy

Venice doesn't stink in the summer

Rome isn't full pickpockets

Hot summers

Mild Winters

 

See if I can think of any other stereotypes

 

No natural disasters

 

Maybe, some come here as a stage in a career and stay, not because of the weather or the income but for other reasons

 

I speak for myself: I came primarily because I had enough of the corruption and nepotism at all levels, private and public sector.

Then the extra money in my pocket and workers rights are both very welcome.

Such things don't exist in italy.

[king12345]

Are all British immigrants settled in spain there as economic Migrants then King??

 

But i have to ask, what has this got to do with implemention and procedure with Article 50?

 

A lot of them are pensioners using their hard earned UK pension to sustain themselves.

Many have businesses.

One thing I never saw in Spain or italy is british people working in bars or building sites.

No matter how you turn it around, UK is the best place to work in Europe.

From salaries to workers rights there are no comparisons.

 

This of course has got nothing to do with article 50.

We drifted away...

[WarrenBuffet]

It's snowing where I am.

[fletch70]

Interesting article in the Guardian weekly this week

 

Basic premise is that once triggered it may be possible to stop our leaving right up until the 2 year limit has been reached

 

It then went on to say that if this is the case and the government use that argument in the supreme court then they will surely win the appeal because within the 2 years parliament could vote to stop it hence in theory our freedoms and liberties that are enshrined in EU law can be maintained or not by parliament

 

Hope that makes sense

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/nov/11/brexit-could-be-reversed-government-lawyers-may-argue

 

That is not the full article but gives a taste

 

I wonder though, whatever the outcome of the supreme court case, could it then be appealed to ECJ - now wouldn't that be ironic - for whichever side

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/oct/13/court-case-battle-looms-over-brexit-legality-article-50

Edited November 18, 2016 by fletch70

[fletch70]

Just with regard to wages and taxation in other states within europe, there is of course the cost of living to be taken into account

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/region_rankings.jsp?title=2016-mid&region=150

 

While the scandanavian countries seem to be up there so do many UK cities

 

Odd that Milan Turin and Bologna are all higher on the list than Rome, even Liverpool is higher than Rome

[king12345]

Just with regard to wages and taxation in other states within europe, there is of course the cost of living to be taken into account

https://www.numbeo.com/cost-of-living/region_rankings.jsp?title=2016-mid&region=150

 

While the scandanavian countries seem to be up there so do many UK cities

 

Odd that Milan Turin and Bologna are all higher on the list than Rome, even Liverpool is higher than Rome

 

Always been the case that north italy is more expensive then centre-south.

Of course in UK is the other way round, same as driving

[legalistic]

Here is the latest on the parties to the government's appeal to the Supreme Court re Brexit:

https://www.supremecourt.uk/news/interveners-article-50-brexit-case.html

It looks like the role of the devolved parliaments is going to be important as the high court's judicial review judgment seemed to subtly indicate.

I heard on the radio that the government has published its skeleton argument for the appeal to the Supreme Court and that the arguments remain much the same as they were in the judicial review.

I've hunted for the skeleton argument but can't find it.

[Guest]

I've hunted for the skeleton argument but can't find it.

see here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?470791-Government-Brexit-Skeleton-Argument

[tobyjugg2]

So King

You are suggesting that all Italians here are economic migrants, here for a better life and to earn more money?

 

This is a rather strange point.

Valid points as undoubtedly migration IS perhaps THE defining issue of Brexit, is a driving force in the EU negotiations and even seems a core driver in the US election.

 

 

Surely everyone who moves does so 'for a better life'. . . even if they dont find one.

 

Same with UK nationals abroad - they have gone to work or for a better warmer life/retirement.

 

Some people are clearly 'thriving' even in Syria or Libya.

 

But is that everyone? and when does fleeing for your life become economic migration??

 

- from the EU - ??

- from Russia - ??

- from America - ??

- from Africa .. ??

I think there are people from all those nations who would say they were persecuted - as there are everywhere.

 

 

Everyone moves for 'a better life' apart from the very few who have natural wanderlust.

 

 

Whats the core issue we are examining here?

Is this about defining who is purely an economic migrant, and who is a 'refugee'

How the heck can anyone accurately define those?

 

Lets look at the poor 'refugees' who spent thousands of dollars paying criminals to cross seas (some of whom perhaps are those criminals) in rickety boats rather than jump on a dreamliner and book in a manchester hotel for less money.

- had to leave with no documents despite having time to amass thousands of dollars

 

• 
  

 

or

 

so called 16 - 17 year old (let alone 8 year old) single unaccompanied children (whos' parents we saw throwing these children over fences from 'safe' countries a thousand miles from their nations borders) who have supposedly crossed continents all alone to get to 'UK'

 

or even the desperate people with nothing in refugee camps on the borders of their home nations who really have simply grabbed their kids and run for their lives.

I know who has my heartfelt sympathies and who I think should receive all the aid we can give

 

 

The ONLY way to address this is apply the defined EU agreements regarding asylum and registration.

[obiter dictum]

Is it not under international law the issue with refugees and asylum comes under the United Nations, and not the European Union?

[WarrenBuffet]

Have you seen the price of bricks lately!!!?

[king12345]

Have you seen the price of bricks lately!!!?

 

Went to have a look last week incidentally.

Same price as ever, 75/90p a brick.

More detailed and decorative anything between £1 and £2.50 a brick.

[tobyjugg2]

Is it not under international law the issue with refugees and asylum comes under the United Nations, and not the European Union?

 

Your statements detract from clarity - not add to it, and are selectively missing the migrant part of my reference.

 

EU abides by what you are calling 'international law' by signing up to the treaties, like the Universal Declaration of Human Rights.

Although by definition EU/ECHR/CEAS law is 'international' law.

 

But the EU also abides by its schengen agreements.

 

https://www.opensocietyfoundations.org/explainers/understanding-migration-and-asylum-european-union

 

http://ec.europa.eu/dgs/home-affairs/what-we-do/policies/borders-and-visas/schengen/index_en.htm

 

For example, non EU citizens traveling to the UK, even if already in the EU still must pass all UK requirements at border control.

 

 

We already know that the vast majority of the migrants outside the middle east refugee camps have breached all the EU's requirements with their 'asylum shopping'

There is also still variety in the detail in the different EU countries

Read carefully:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asylum_in_the_European_Union

[obiter dictum]

With all due respect i do not do Wiki

 

I was referencing the EU being a "Non state actor" with international law and the issue with Refugees come under the United Nations. The EU is a law making organisation in its own right

Edited November 21, 2016 by obiter dictum

[tobyjugg2]

With all due respect i do not do Wiki

 

I was referencing the EU being a "Non state actor" with international law and the issue with Refugees come under the United Nations. The EU is a law making organisation in its own right

 

 

Perhaps you should wiki then.

That response doesn't even make basic sense really.

 

The EU is a state of states and acts as a state with regard to international law, although individual states can 'interpret' the practical implementations of at least some of the laws, just as US states can.

 

All states/countries of course do 'lobby' each other and the international bodies, as do genuine NGO's

Hopefully its the nations lobbying each other for support that works best.....

[unclebulgaria67]

When the aliens do arrive, they will just see The Earth as one planet with no states or borders. Can't wait, but hope they are friendly

[WarrenBuffet]

Let's hope they don't land in America first!

[tobyjugg2]

When the aliens do arrive, they will just see The Earth as one planet with no states or borders. Can't wait, but hope they are friendly ��

 

When did David Iche join the discussion?

or has he thrown his cap in against Farage for the FFS job?

(Farthest Foreign Secretary of course - although it will undoubtedly be punned Flights of Fancy Secretary (if nothing else))

 

and who's brought a disposable punchbowl for the 'celebration?

 

Wondered where some of these 'points' came from.

[legalistic]

see here

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?470791-Government-Brexit-Skeleton-Argument

 

Ford, there seems to be some confusion as to which government skeleton argument we are talking about.

I was asking for the one for the forthcoming appeal to the Supreme Court not for the judicial review.

You provided it a day or two ago, but it seems to have disappeared from this thread.

[Guest]

Ford, there seems to be some confusion as to which government skeleton argument we are talking about.

I was asking for the one for the forthcoming appeal to the Supreme Court not for the judicial review.

You provided it a day or two ago, but it seems to have disappeared from this thread.

still there, post #12 in that thread?

[tobyjugg2]

so on top of the 16% fall in the worth of the pound (so far)

Autumn Statement 2016: Hammond unveils £122bn Brexit black hole

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/nov/23/autumn-statement-2016-philip-hammond-brexit-growth-deficit-housing-jams-universal-credit-minimum-wage-live?page=with%3Ablock-58359b3ce4b0da4920d6b46d

[unclebulgaria67]

so on top of the 16% fall in the worth of the pound (so far)

Autumn Statement 2016: Hammond unveils £122bn Brexit black hole

 

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/live/2016/nov/23/autumn-statement-2016-philip-hammond-brexit-growth-deficit-housing-jams-universal-credit-minimum-wage-live?page=with%3Ablock-58359b3ce4b0da4920d6b46d

 

You wait until the economics justifies Brexit not happening. The leavers are going to have a right fit.