Article 50 Discussion

[determindator]

Lord Kerr who actually devised Article 50, told the BBC that invoking it would not make Britain's exit from the EU 'irrevocable', He said 'You can change your mind while the process going on'

 

In out in out shake it all about!

[unclebulgaria67]

Lord Kerr who actually devised Article 50, told the BBC that invoking it would not make Britain's exit from the EU 'irrevocable', He said 'You can change your mind while the process going on'

 

In out in out shake it all about!

 

You have to withdraw before the 2 years is up and it has to be accepted by leaders of other countries. Given the UK financial contribution to the EU, they are most likely to accept.

 

I genuinely do not think Brexit will happen, because once it is realised what the consequences are, a lot of people are going to change their minds. So much is going to happen during the next few years and by the time the Brexit deal is advised to Parliament, they might decide to reject it. Of course those that support leave are going to do their best to make Brexit happen, but trying to proceed in a way that sidelines Parliament until a deal is finalised is a mistake they will come to regret.

[determindator]

I know, what about a referendum to decide if Parliament is involved in the process. Personally I would vote yes.

[tobyjugg2]

No one seemed to moan about Tony Blair taking us into war without the approval of a majority of democratically elected members of Parliament ?

 

I wasn't happy about it despite coming to the inescapable conclusion then (which has grown stronger over the years) that it was a necessary 'least bad' option of a batch of bad options - unlike Libya and Syria.

 

Lets also not forget that despite Parliament clearly voting AGAINST action in Syria, the Government of that time used executive weasel reasoning to take action there anyway - despite that vote, and before the second vote approving some action.

Including the gem :

UK forces action and air strikes in Syria being self-defence of Iraq !!!

 

(Note also that daesh actually expanded its sphere under those so called actions)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/11745689/British-pilots-in-air-strikes-against-Isil-in-Syria-live.html

http://researchbriefings.parliament.uk/ResearchBriefing/Summary/SN06995

 

 

 

Google UK forces action in Syria

 

 

Which do you think is worse?

 

Who thinks the same sort of weasel reasoning will be applied to 'Brexit' - especially if not closely scrutinised in Parliament

[unclebulgaria67]

It would be funny if all trade deals with countries outside of the EU had to include some rights of migration to the UK, if they met a certain criteria. So we would close the border with the EU or restrict entry to EU citizens and then have just as many immigrants coming from all around the world. So net migration never came down to tens of thousands.

 

There seems to have been an assumption with Brexit, that suddenly the UK would be signing up to trade deals all around the world, which were positive for the UK, without any terms people would not like. The UK could become more of a global hub, with more people coming to the UK and foreign companies exporting their profits to escape UK taxes. It is ok if employment rights were maintained, but some Tories want to see a reduction in such rights.

[legalistic]

unclebulgaria, I agree with you about different immigrants likely replacing EU ones.

Theresa May's recent/present trade mission to India revealed precisely that. They are demanding more visas for Indians travelling to the UK as part of any trade deal. Further they have protectionist laws regarding trade in services. Any deal will involve our asking them to change their law.

Brexiters have fantasies about the trade deals we are going to get. The fact is it's a tough world on our own outside the EU.

[fletch70]

so who do you suggest be in Government then, Fletch?

 

Maybe should have a poll, If there was a general election tomorrow who would you vote for?

 

I do not support any party but deff would not vote for Labour!

 

There is no one good enough in my opinion

 

I think my political views are quite well known but here is not the place to discuss them.

 

However , the first thing I would do is fix the voting system so that it gives a more representative make up of the commons. I think in that way we would see a markedly different vote because people who are at heart say liberal democrats would be able to vote for what they believe in rather than worrying that their vote would be wasted. In the area I live the Tories hold the seat and Lib dems are second (even after the collapse of the vote) with Ukip and labour neck and neck for third. Interestingly , for many years the Tory vote has remained relatively constant with the other parties swing from labour to Liberals as dissatisfaction with labour grew . Historically it was a liberal constituency even long after the Liberal party were a party of government.

[fletch70]

Unclebulgaria

 

I sincerely hope that you are right and Brexit will never happen. The fear I have is that so much damage will have been done to the economy by the time the decision is made we will never recover to where we could be. Its a bit like our refusal to join the embryonic EEC way back when which left us lagging behind.

 

I am afraid I believe that too many people still think we are a world power with an empire - or could be again. We will not have an empire again and it was that which drove our position as a world power simple by the numbers of people and the land mass we controlled.

 

before anyone tries to say otherwise , I think that Britain can be great but needs to stay united and needs to be a player within Europe.

[WarrenBuffet]

We as a nation are in debt to our eyes and living off more credit, we don't manufacture anything really and we have no energy reserves. .....The future is bright the future is bankrupt & in the red!

[Guest]

It would be funny if all trade deals with countries outside of the EU had to include some rights of migration to the UK, if they met a certain criteria. So we would close the border with the EU or restrict entry to EU citizens and then have just as many immigrants coming from all around the world. So net migration never came down to tens of thousands.

 

.

yep, PM May just in India discussing future trade. india saying wld want/expect more relaxed immigration/visa controls.

and, there still cld be free movement for eu cits depending on the type of exit agreement. plus then more relaxed movement/imm for the other countries in trade agreements. ie potentially more immigration overall.

[king12345]

We as a nation are in debt to our eyes and living off more credit, we don't manufacture anything really and we have no energy reserves. .....The future is bright the future is bankrupt & in the red!

 

Wrong!

 

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/5083/economics/what-does-the-uk-produce/

[WarrenBuffet]

Wrong!

 

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/5083/economics/what-does-the-uk-produce/

 

Really?

 

King what you fail to understand is that the big manufacturers are all foreign owned,and manufacture here due to Gov backhanders such as grants and tax breaks.

[legalistic]

unclebulgaria, you say the government's majority in the House of Commons is very small and that they might not get matters relating to Brexit passed.

But current MPs, of all parties, are terrified of the high feelings of the Brexiters and fear for their seats and even for public order. That is why they keep saying that the referendum must be respected.

Of course, though, they have their fingers crossed that something will come along to prevent them from voting the nation to its doom.

It seems to me that the rush Theresa May is engaged in to invoke Art 50 is to do with the elections to the European Parliament in June 2019. We need to know a good 12 weeks earlier if we are going to field candidates and also to establish our electoral register for the said election.

My feeling is she should stop rushing. It is not in our interest. She should invoke art 50 only after the European Parliament elections in which we field candidates as normal.

There are 2 main groups that are trying to rush her (1) European leaders. We have defecated in the EU nest and they want rid of us as soon as possible. (2) The OUT NOW Brexiters who seem blissfully unaware of how damaging rushing would be.

Mrs May should take her time. It is a good strategy in any event.

[king12345]

Really?

 

King what you fail to understand is that the big manufacturers are all foreign owned,and manufacture here due to Gov backhanders such as grants and tax breaks.

 

I answered to your wild guess that "we don't manufacture anything really and we have no power reserves".

Now new subject, same as all the other nonsense.

The two balls in three cups game I call it.

[WarrenBuffet]

 

I answered to your wild guess that "we don't manufacture anything really and we have no power reserves".

Now new subject, same as all the other nonsense.

The two balls in three cups game I call it.

[MrHat]

This really is a fascinating googling competition. Watching with interest

[fletch70]

Oh won't the racists just love it if we let more Indians in.

 

King does fail to understand just how much of our business is foreign owned. A crash in the pound makes less profit for them, hence the biggest chip factory in the world is putting prices up after months of cut throats price reductions.

 

Just how many companies do DB own?

Eon

Edf

Toyota

Nissan

Jaguar Land Rover

 

Then we get the financial firms who might just head offices abroad.

 

By the way, no google in sight but oops that ain't British either

[tobyjugg2]

Wrong!

 

http://www.economicshelp.org/blog/5083/economics/what-does-the-uk-produce/

 

Have you actually read that link you gave?

 

 

"UK manufacturing used to account for over 50% of the size of the economy. Now, manufacturing accounts for around 12-15%."

 

 

"Note: many UK car firms may be owned by foreign companies."

(as are energy companies, the remnants of our steel industry and our future nuclear power generation)

 

 

Also the graph shows that of our largest individual export partners:

2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th and 9th are individual EU countries (of course the EU as a whole are the largest - by FAR)

In fact, it clearly shows the US - our largest export partner (of which military equipment is a significant part) is only 2% larger than Germany on its own excluding all the rest of the EU

 

 

What point were you actually trying to make with that link king?

[WarrenBuffet]

Poor King12345, Consumer Dude has fled the (Sinking) Brexit ship and left him fighting the sinking brexit battle.

[determindator]

Interesting report

 

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/rogerbootle/7604386/British-manufacturing-is-bigger-than-you-think-and-its-likely-to-grow.html

 

http://www.tradingeconomics.com/united-kingdom/manufacturing-production

[king12345]

Have you actually read that link you gave?

 

 

"UK manufacturing used to account for over 50% of the size of the economy. Now, manufacturing accounts for around 12-15%."

 

 

"Note: many UK car firms may be owned by foreign companies."

(as are energy companies, the remnants of our steel industry and our future nuclear power generation)

 

 

Also the graph shows that of our largest individual export partners:

2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, 6th, 8th and 9th are individual EU countries (of course the EU as a whole are the largest - by FAR)

In fact, it clearly shows the US - our largest export partner (of which military equipment is a significant part) is only 2% larger than Germany on its own excluding all the rest of the EU

 

 

What point were you actually trying to make with that link king?

 

You need to read past the first two lines.

Hard, I know.

But just try...

[Consumer dude]

Poor King12345, Consumer Dude has fled the (Sinking) Brexit ship and left him fighting the sinking brexit battle.

 

Not at all, just listening to president elect Trump..

[WarrenBuffet]

Not at all, just listening to president elect Trump..

 

The end of the world is nigh!

[citizenB]

The end of the world is nigh!

 

 

Certainly looks that way

[honeybee13]

Ahem guys, we have a Trump thread already. Please can we keep this on for Article 50?

 

HB