other Civil Enforcement PCN - KFC when open 90 mins free parking - POPLA Appeal

[mag1971]

Hi there,

 

I recently was given a PCN, for £100, which I felt was unlawfully issued based on the following facts.

The PCN was based on the following sign: Maximum 90 minutes free parking while the store is open.

My argument was that the store (KFC) was shut when I parked there, for 25 minutes, and the words of the sign which they base their charge on literally means that there is a limit of 90 minutes, for parking while the store is open.

 

They make no mention of any restrictions for parking while the aforementioned store was shut.

 

I have made an unsuccessful internal appeal to Civil Enforcement Ltd so am now forced to appeal to POPLA.

 

Based on this do I have a case?

 

Thanks

Michael

[Sidewinder]

If there is no clause specifying that there is No Parking when the store is not open then I would say that it would be impossible to argue otherwise.

 

Having said that, with POPLA and PPCs you just know that you will still be given the runaround. Do you have a photo of the signage? Where is the KFC?

[mag1971]

Thanks for your reply. I don't have a photo of the signage but the words are quoted from the letter that Civil Enforcement Ltd base their claim on. The KFC is 258 London Road, Hazel Grove, SK7 4DA.

[silverfox1961]

Hi and welcome to CAG.

Unfortunately, Google streetview is out of date and there are no signs visible so we need pictures. If you can't get them, do you know anyone who could?

 

Parking companies rely on the signage to be able to enforce these silly charges so it is always worth scrutinising them with a fine tooth comb

[mag1971]

Hi and thanks.

 

I am going to try and get some photos today, so will keep you posted.

[ericsbrother]

the contract offered must have certain core conditions and if they are relying on such vague wording then you are entitled to make assumptions using the commonest meaning of the language used. When you have the images of the signage we can advise further as it is good to have other points to raise when they are available.

[mag1971]

 

Hi all,

 

Here are attached photos of the signage in the KFC car-park. They do seem to go into a bit more detail than the wording in the original Parking Charge Notice I was sent.

 

To be honest we didn't even notice that there was any restrictions on a KFC car park. This is the first one I've ever come across.

 

Thanks in advance for any further advice.

 

Michael

[silverfox1961]

The restrictions are stated as 90 minutes during store opening hours and makes no mention of when the store is closed therefore you cannot breach a condition that isn't there.

 

If I were to see the signs, I would take it as I could park there for as long as I like during the out of hours period.

 

As you are not in breach of any contract, the most you could be guilty of is trespass and if so, only the landowner, not some poxy PPC, could take action and as you caused no loss whatsoever, I can't see that happening any time soon.

 

EDIT:

As CEL are members of the BPA, I would appeal to CEL first and when you get the rejection back (as you surely will) they must give you a code to use in your POPLA appeal. As I see it, you must succeed.

Edited October 3, 2016 by silverfox1961
Added more info

[mag1971]

Thanks for your positive feedback. I have already appealed internally to CEL and as you quite rightly assumed they have rejected my appeal so I will now have to appeal to POPLA.

 

Would you suggest adding further comments, on top of the issue with the signage, or should that be enough?

 

Again, thank you very much for your time and advice.

[silverfox1961]

With POPLA, you stick to facts only. The signs are non compliant with what they are trying to charge you for. I would hold off doing anything just yet as one of our best has yet to view this thread, Ericsbrother is pretty good at ripping these signs apart.

[mag1971]

Ok thank you

[ericsbrother]

well, the second sign isnt offering a contract as it is an invitation to treat at best and the first one is written in sucj language as to be just garbled nonsense.

Does the 90 mins during store opening mean you cannot park at all outside these hours or does it mean that the 90 mins limit doesnt apply after the store is closed? It says if you breach any of these terms you pay £100 but doesnt have any terms but they apply at all times so that contradicts the big wording saying during opening hours.

CEL arent the most law abiding company in the world, they cant even remember who their directors are and often forget how to spell their names on documents so TBH I wouldnt worry too much about all of this.

Your appeal to POPLA should should state that the signage isnt an offer of a contract, the signage is contradictory and confusing and doesnt contain enough information for anyone to consider as offer and acceptance.(you can give the example of the conditions apply when you cant park there if you wish but make the point that the 90 minute limit only applies to during the working day.

I would also ahve a look at their NTK as I bet it wasnt compliant with the POFA to create keeper liability. If you have it tell us all about the event itself, dates, times, when you received the NTK (post it up ) etc and we will pick holes in that as well.

[mag1971]

Hi ericsbrother

 

Thank you very much for your detailed analysis. I'm 100% with you that the wording on the sign is open to interpretation.

 

I have only received the initial Parking Charge Notice and of course their Response to Representation to tell me that my internal appeal was unsuccessful, no surprise there though.

 

I can post details from either if you would like to pick more holes.

 

I would like to thank everyone for your very positive support up to this point. it has certainly made me feel more confident in advancing the appeal process.

[ericsbrother]

We need to see the original NTK and your appeal as the chances are you have shot yourself in the foot in that appeal to CEL. Dont need to see their rejection letter.

In future, never appeal a parking charge without taking advice, particularly one where ANPR is used as most parking co's get the procedure wrong and appealing their claim actually counteracts their errors and gives them the right to pursue you.

[mag1971]

OK, thanks for the advice. Am I OK to post a scanned copy of the PCN publicly? And again I can send you the wording of the email I sent to the appeal. thanks

[ericsbrother]

yes, redact the personl info like name, address, car reg and invoice number. leave in dates, times and place details though.

[mag1971]

OK, here's my email text for starters;

 

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

I was issued with a parking ticket for parking at 258 London Road, Hazel Grove, Stockport, SK7 4DA on 16/08/2016.

 

I believe this ticket was issued unfairly and that I don’t need to pay it because:

My car was parked there only between 09:56:58 and 10:21:47.

The signage indicated I was entitled to park at these times without charge, according to the terms and conditions clearly stated on the signage:

Maximum 90 minutes free parking while the store is open

 

According to the terms and conditions of this signage I was not in breach of the terms and conditions for the following 2 reasons:

 

I was parked for no more than 25 minutes

The store was actually not open. The are no further signs stating terms and conditions for when the store is not open

Accordingly, there is no signage to suggest I had breached any terms and conditions.

 

I understand that you’re obliged to provide evidence that the car was parked in breach of the rules.

 

I will post the letter shortly

[mag1971]

And here is the letter (PCN)

[silverfox1961]

Don't appeal just yet. I didn't realise this was during the day. Not that it matters. I would have thought KFC would be open early as 16/08 was a Tuesday.

 

The argument is:

a) As this was out of hours, no breach could have occurred as that was not stated on the signs

b) IF it was during store hours, no breach could have occurred as you were only there 25 minutes and you were allowed to go wherever you wanted to as the sign didn't say 90 minutes free whilst inside KFC, only during opening hours.

c) The notice to keeper is out of time! When using ANPR systems BPA members are obliged to inform the keeper within 14 days. Almost a month late won't cut it. All liability now lies with the driver and you haven't mentioned who was driving.

[mag1971]

OK, I can hold on a while yet.

I have 28 days to appeal from the 28/09/2016.

 

Thanks.

[silverfox1961]

Here is my example appeal (not done one before) You can appeal to POPLA online.

 

Under section 56, schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms act 2012, the keeper may become liable for the payment of a parking charge if the parking company has contacted the keeper within 14 days. Civil Enforcement Ltd sent the Notice to Keeper 28 days later therefore, they are out of time to hold the keeper liable and as such only the driver can be held liable. The keeper is under no obligation to name the driver.

 

It is my contention that the driver cannot have breached any terms imposed for the following reasons.

 

1 Signage at the site in question states 90 minutes free parking during opening hours. At the time of the alleged contravention, the store was closed therefore no breach could have occurred.

 

2 As the signage says 90 minutes free parking during opening hours, even if the store WAS open, no breach could have occurred as the vehicle was on site for approximately 25 minutes.

 

I invite you to uphold my appeal.

 

That is the basic one I would try but as I said, hold off for now till someone else offers opinions.

 

Guidance on Section 56 and Schedule 4 of the Protection of Freedoms Act 2012: Recovery of Unpaid Parking Charges - guidance-unpaid-parking-charges.pdf

[ericsbrother]

we need to see the letter you sent to CEL before you send anything to POPLA

[mag1971]

Thanks for your reply silverfox1961,

 

Certainly looks like a solid appeal statement, especially considering it's your first. I will take your advice and hang on for any further opinions.

 

ericsbrother, I posted the content of the appeal email I sent to CEL, yesterday. it is as follows:

 

Dear Sir/Madam,

I was issued with a parking ticket for parking at 258 London Road, Hazel Grove, Stockport, SK7 4DA on 16/08/2016.

 

I believe this ticket was issued unfairly and that I don’t need to pay it because:

My car was parked there only between 09:56:58 and 10:21:47.

The signage indicated I was entitled to park at these times without charge, according to the terms and conditions clearly stated on the signage:

Maximum 90 minutes free parking while the store is open

 

According to the terms and conditions of this signage I was not in breach of the terms and conditions for the following 2 reasons:

 

I was parked for no more than 25 minutes

The store was actually not open. The are no further signs stating terms and conditions for when the store is not open

Accordingly, there is no signage to suggest I had breached any terms and conditions.

 

I understand that you’re obliged to provide evidence that the car was parked in breach of the rules.

 

Yours faithfully

 

That is the only correspondence i have sent so far.

[silverfox1961]

I'm glad you didn't send that to POPLA. Have CEL sent you the POPLA code?

 

While that appeal is my first one, EB can (and has) done much better.

[mag1971]

Hi silverfox1961, Yes CEL have sent the POPLA code