Disciplinary Meeting

[landlor]

@Bazz, Its as if the meeting never happened. That's what the solicitor himself said when I once asked him what is meant by Without Prejudice clause pronounced at the beginning of those meetings. I was sent an email in second week of December about date of hearing. That't the first formal record of motion.

 

Also informal discussions and without prejudice conversation, Does one need to attach any value to them unless they are made official.

[BazzaS]

@Bazz, Its as if the meeting never happened. That's what the solicitor himself said when I once asked him what is meant by Without Prejudice clause pronounced at the beginning of those meetings.

 

It is as if the meeting(s) never happened with regard to any subsequent legal proceedings between yourself and the company.

 

You have evaded the (relevant) question I asked (presumably as you don't want to face up to either answering and/or the consequence(s) of an answer).

I asked: "More to the point : what will you tell the insurers it was about, if asked?"

 

Do you plan to lie & say there was no meeting?

Lie and says there was a meeting but no mention was made of a disciplinary?

 

With regard to taking out insurance expect to be held to the standard of "utmost good faith" regarding disclosure, rather than "what can I get away with".

 

What will you do if the reply to the SAR comes back showing your enquiry regarding getting a later date stated to make it that the insurer must pay out? Was that discussion on a "without prejudice" basis, and (even if so), do you think that "without prejudice" holds if you have asked them to undertake a potentially unlawful act??

[BazzaS]

Does your insurer use Voice Risk Analysis?. If so, does that concern you??.

http://www.wsj.com/articles/SB108474429424412744

[BazzaS]

Fwiw and ignoring Bazza's suggestion not to advise [sorry Bazza ]

HB

 

I said I wouldn't advise. That won't stop me asking (hopefully relevant!) questions, nor should it stop others advising if they choose to do so!.

I just won't waste the energy on translating the answers (if the OP bothers to answer) into advice.

Others might do so.

 

So, no apology necessary.

[sangie5952]

In the spirit of nobody giving any advice, I shall just observe that what the OP is intending to do is criminal fraud.

 

And the employer will be required to provide a truthful statement that there was no possibility of a termination at the date that the insurance was taken out, something which they cannot do since they MUST admit that consideration was being given to termination.

[BazzaS]

In the spirit of nobody giving any advice, I shall just observe that what the OP is intending to do is criminal fraud.

 

I said I'm not advising.

I'm not saying others shouldn't (nor am I saying they should!).

 

I speak only for myself (well, most days, anyhow).

I respect the right of others to choose, and unless I have reason otherwise, my default will be to respect their (informed) choice too.

 

So, just to make my position clear, I don't think there should be a "spirit of nobody giving advice", only a spirit of "some people" (maybe even many people, but each decides!) "feel there is no point in offering advice to that OP, on that subject".

[honeybee13]

I had the same thought about utmost good faith, Bazza.

 

I wouldn't be at all surprised if the insurers look very carefully at the timing of events if there's a claim, because newlyn seems to have taken out the policy about the time that the problems started at work, rather than when they joined the company.

 

ETA: post #39 refers.

 

HB

Edited December 27, 2016 by honeybee13
Addition.

[king12345]

Remember that employers always keep records of everything.

There's no such thing as off the records.

In my company they call it holistic file, different and more detailed than official staff file.

The company keeps on denying the existence of such files, but while defending many colleagues, some stuff "off the records" came up.

In many occasions even words of advice from a manager in a non official meeting, but in a chit chat at the coffee machine.

This can only mean that they do keep records of everything, official or not.

So be careful if you intend to make an insurance claim; in reality you were aware of pending disciplinary, so I wouldn't even start a claim.

[landlor]

But is there a proof to what was discussed in the meeting.

 

I actually have two policy from the same company.

One I took one year back but that does not cover disciplinary and another one this September.

[sangie5952]

But is there a proof to what was discussed in the meeting.

 

I actually have two policy from the same company. One I took one year back but that does not cover disciplinary and another one this September.

 

It does not matter whether there is proof of what happened at the meeting:

 

(a) The concept of "without prejudice" is an awful lot less of a protection for information that most people (including you) assume it is.

 

(b) YOU know about the meeting, and therefore any statement that you have made or will make about not knowing about a potential termination is a LIE

 

© You are expecting your employer to collude with you in that lie - that is an unrealistic expectation

 

(d) The question framed by insurance companies is very broad - even IF the employer decided not to mention the meeting, there will be records of all sorts of other discussions and the employer KNOWS that they intend to take disciplinary action. None of those records or the knowledge are "without prejudice"

 

(e) Having two policies is not going to form any protection. They are still going to wonder why you took out a second one, with this specific inclusion not in the previous policy, and then miraculously and entirely by coincidence ended up without employment. You appear to think insurance companies are stupid. They are not.

 

I would remind you that insurance companies routinely share information for the purposes of preventing fraud. That means that if you make a fraudulent claim on this policy and then get caught, every company you hold insurance with, and every company you might want to hold insurance with, will know about it. You will be unable to insure ANYTHING! Do you drive? How will you drive when insurers refuse to insure you? Own a house? What mortgage company will touch you if you can't get insurance? You are lining yourself up to lose a lot more than your job. Even if they only come to suspect that you may have committed fraud, what do you think the chances are that they will record that somewhere? And that other insurers might also see those records? Because I am betting the odds are not in your favour.

[landlor]

If I accept the SA, will it still be a problem with my second policy? If I get email from employer confirming that there was no motion against me ever, that will make me safe, I believe.

[honeybee13]

What do you mean about there being no motion against you please?

 

HB

[king12345]

If I accept the SA, will it still be a problem with my second policy? If I get email from employer confirming that there was no motion against me ever, that will make me safe, I believe.

 

You can't lie to an insurance company to gain compensation.

Well you can, but then you have to face the very possible consequence described above.

Personally I would never lie to an insurance, when they catch you they destroy your life.

Imagine having no car!!!

How do you taxi the kids around???

[sangie5952]

If I accept the SA, will it still be a problem with my second policy? If I get email from employer confirming that there was no motion against me ever, that will make me safe, I believe.

 

I believe I covered that in ©. You are asking your employer to lie for you. Even if they agreed to provide the email, the insurance company will contact them directly. And the employer is going to lie? Not going to happen. I realise that this is a hard concept to grasp. You took out that policy AFTER you knew that you could face dismissal due to disciplinary action. That was an INTENT to defraud. Luckily for you, that intent is not actionable in law. ACTING ON THAT INTENT IS AGAINST THE LAW! At the very best you may never get insurance again. You may end up in court. You could go to prison! Fraud is a criminal act.

 

It really does not matter what emails, letters, tape recordings or other FALSIFIED evidence you get. You are asking people here to assist and support you in undertaking a criminal act. People are trying to explain to you that that you are proposing to embark on a dangerous course of action. A very dangerous course of action. That could ruin your life. Insurers are not idiots. They have dealt with people a lot cleverer than you. If you are very lucky, the worst that will happen is that your claim will be declined. Are you seriously willing to risk your entire future on that hope???? Right now, the worst that can happen is that you end up unemployed for as long as it takes to find other work. If you are correct about your skills, that won't take long.

 

In my opinion you have made some poor decisions over the last few months. If you really want to turn down the agreement and fight, I believe that will be another one, but you need to do what you feel is the right thing. But you cannot seriously believe that this is the right thing. If you do, there is something very wrong with your moral compass. Committing fraud is not a moral, ethical or legal thing to do. And you know that.

[honeybee13]

If I accept the SA, will it still be a problem with my second policy? If I get email from employer confirming that there was no motion against me ever, that will make me safe, I believe.

 

You haven't replied to my question in post #141, but given that we don't have all of the information on what has gone on at work, nor the exact wording of your insurance policy, I don't think we can confirm that you're safe. It would be guesswork, I'm afraid.

 

As I said earlier today, I would expect the insurer to be sceptical about the timing of your claim so soon after you took the policy out.

 

HB

[landlor]

Do informal discussions count? Can I not say that I don't need to attach any importance to anything that is not formal.

 

Why should anyone take informal communication seriously?

[Emmzzi]

Do informal discussions count? Can I not say that I don't need to attach any importance to anything that is not formal.

 

Why should anyone take informal communication seriously?

 

 

You need to adhere to both the letter and the spirit of your agreement with insurers. Stop trying to be a wide boy!

[sangie5952]

Do informal discussions count? Can I not say that I don't need to attach any importance to anything that is not formal.

 

Why should anyone take informal communication seriously?

 

Of course they do. Of course you can't.

 

And since this is "informal communication" why are you here if you don't take it seriously?

 

Which part of "fraud is not moral, ethical or legal" did you not understand?

[BazzaS]

Do informal discussions count? Can I not say that I don't need to attach any importance to anything that is not formal.

 

Why should anyone take informal communication seriously?

 

*

You need not attach any importance to it

No one need take notice of any informal discussion.

 

In fact, as soon as someone hears informally there may be a disciplinary, and knowing that they can never do ANYTHING wrong, but that their employer is bound to not see how perfect they are, they should rush to take out insurance before they hear formally.....

 

They also can't dismiss the OP

If they try the OP can go straight to issuing proceedings (ACAS?, smay-cash!), and the employer will fold, paying a gazillion to avoid the exposure and shame a tribunal will bring.

If the employer (whose legal advisors are idiots) foolishly decides not to settle, it'll go to a tribunal in days, it will be stress-free for the OP and they will win, being awarded gazillions

*

 

Anything between the *'s is made up, and would only apply in an alternate reality.

However, the OP isn't likely to stop until they hear what they want to hear: now sorted.

[sangie5952]

You forgot the bit about how, in the meantime, the insurance company will pay up without question; the OP will have insurers lining up for their business so will never need to visit the Meerkats again; and will not end up with a criminal record.

 

It's a shame they won't be able to get any 2 for 1 cinema tickets any more.

 

It's sad for me to say this, but the more the OP says, the more insight I get into what the employer thinks of them and why.

I hate it when that happens.

I'm not naive.

Not all of our members are as pure as the driven snow.

 

 

Occasionally, some of them are people I would never otherwise want to meet, never mind represent.

But the actions of the OP and their approach displayed here don't feel like desperation.

They feel like something less explicable and calculated.

 

 

I really hope that I am wrong, and I hope that the OP is able to detach themselves from this long enough to take a long and objective read of the things they have said on this thread.

 

In their shoes, I think I would want to draw a line firmly under this terrible episode and get on with life - hopefully without ever being driven to suggest resorting to criminal acts and revenge motivations again.

 

Newlyn- go back to the employer, and say that you agree to their terms if they will throw in an agreed reference for future employers.

 

 

Don't even think about asking them to lie to your insurers, or they will quite possibly take the whole deal of the table.

 

 

Get your backside down to some employment agencies and get any job that you can do for the interim so that you can pay your way.

 

 

Use the breathing space to find the right job for you.

 

 

And - and this is a big ask - try to think objectively about how you ended up in this situation and learn from the experience.

 

 

Even by your own version of events, it is fairly clear to pretty much everyone except you that you have contributed to getting into this pickle.

 

 

You could have done things better.

 

 

And here's a starter for ten - when your manager tells you that they would like you do do things better/ differently, just do it.

Don't argue.

Don't tell them you are doing a great job.

Just do as they ask.

 

 

When you are the manager, you can manage as you wish.

But you have to last long enough in an employment to become a manager.

And whatever the rights and wrongs of any employer, you don't do that by going your own way and ignoring your managers advice.

 

(Sorry, for some reason the first part of my post posted and the rest didn't!)

[honeybee13]

(Sorry, for some reason the first part of my post posted and the rest didn't!)

 

I've removed the part post, Sangie, as the whole one is above.

 

HB

[sangie5952]

Thank you Honeybee13. I couldn't figure out how to delete it myself.

[honeybee13]

You can only edit during the 10 minutes after posting, Sangie.

 

HB

[BazzaS]

Well, well.

"Newlyn" is getting themselves confused with "landlor" (again!).

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?430995-Help&p=4595135#post4595135

 

Interesting posting history ........ when taken together.

[foodandbeverage]

Whole things seems a bit protracted, no?

 

Without trying to be funny, is the OP from abroad?