Islington Council PCN: Code 001

[Baz1994]

Parked on double yellow lines (no kerb markings) outside restaurant this morning approx 5.45am. When I came out after making delivery I had a PCN on my delivery van.

 

According to two men I spoke to parked across the road, it was a mobile enforcement car with the CEO getting out and taking pictures then sped off.

 

I have just googled nearby signage and it is a small yellow plaque with a small controlled zone circle and times midnight - 8am & 6.30pm - midnight. Also has picture of a bus and a lorry with 5T on it.

 

Can someone kindly confirm what signage instructs apart from no waiting / parking during times shown.

 

Thank-you

[Michael Browne]

Appeal on the grounds that the contravention did not occur since you were delivering (loading/unloading is an exemption on DYL's where the are no kerb blips) Enclose a copy of the delivery note.

 

Does the PCN show any observation time?

 

Assuming your vehicle is less than 5T, the sign is irrelevant

[Baz1994]

Appeal on the grounds that the contravention did not occur since you were delivering (loading/unloading is an exemption on DYL's where the are no kerb blips) Enclose a copy of the delivery note.

 

Does the PCN show any observation time?

 

Assuming your vehicle is less than 5T, the sign is irrelevant

 

Thanks Michael

 

Thought as much and is so annoying. I have two company delivery signs in which are clearly marked and visible including one in front window on embossed company logo.

 

PCN shows just time of 5:50am.

 

Also states photographs of the vehicle may have been taken to show it parked in contravention.

 

The PCN was loosely attached to window screen of van and guess he was in bit of a hurry.

 

Ford Transit with re-frigeration approx 3.5 T or less I believe.

 

No signage for any loading restrictions including times.

[Michael Browne]

PCN shows just time of 5:50am.

 

Add to appeal:

 

PCN shows no obervation times and therefore the CEO could not have ascertained as to whether loading/unloading was taking place

[Baz1994]

Thank-you and will add that to photos of signage on van.

 

Delivery signage in front window screen.

 

Copy of delivery invoice for restaurant.

 

I just tried to view photos on Islington parking website - image viewing unavailable at present due to security issue ?

[Baz1994]

Further to the above, my main concern now is that I have just read something about 10 minute observation times for goods vehicles.

 

Apparently Islington Council do not now state these on the actual PCN but evidence of different times maybe on the actual photos.

 

Would the above still be irrelevant considering it was a delivery, parked on DYL's with no kerb markings but in a restricted street?

 

Tried to post pic from google of location but having a bit of trouble. Address is St Johns Restaurant EC1.

 

Sorry to sound paranoid but I want to write up appeal correctly.

 

Thanks again for looking

[Michael Browne]

You're over thinking it. Just make the informal appeal with the basic points.

 

From what you've said it was an enforcement car hit and run. It's highly unlikely they sat there for any length of time at all, let alone 10 minutes

 

https://goo.gl/maps/HqHmnHX5muj

[Baz1994]

Ok thanks again Michael and apologies for sounding over cautious.

 

I was the only van parked outside until I came out when another pulled up behind me. Hence when I found PCN and spoke to the two blokes across the road sitting in the van.

 

It's just that sometimes they do sort of hide out of sight and it was early and dark, so may not of noticed them. They are known to do that in this street. I could have been longer than 10 minutes as I had to unload produce into restaurant freezer.

 

Did find this though from there website, a little confusing regarding certain vehicle times .

 

https://www.islington.gov.uk/parking/parking-restrictions/loading-and-unloading

 

So shall I just keep my appeal minimal or is there certain wording I should use.

 

Also shall I mention / ask for any observation times or will these probably be clarified on photos beforehand?

[Michael Browne]

The website is being economical with the truth as regards 'Loading must be continuous'

 

Completion of necessary paperwork will normally be viewed as part and parcel of the loading/unloading process.

 

Unloading includes taking the items to that part of the premises where they are

required to go. (ie the kitchen that was, possibly, at the back of the restaurant

 

However it would not normally include further unpacking or arrangement of the items,( so don't mention packing them in the freezer)

 

So shall I just keep my appeal minimal or is there certain wording I should use.

Yes brief and to the point. If you want, post it here before you send it

Also shall I mention / ask for any observation times or will these probably be clarified on photos beforehand?

Only in as much as there were no obs times and so CEO couldn't ascertain etc

 

[Jamberson]

Apparently Islington Council do not now state these on the actual PCN but evidence of different times maybe on the actual photos.

 

 

I believe that is right - so then the question is, do they have evidence of the vehicle being in-situ for a period? If they do, and they can show that the vehicle was there for, say 10 minutes, there wouldn't be anything gained by appealing on lack of observation times.

 

Out of interest, how long was the vehicle actually parked there unattended?

 

If it was more than just a few minutes, then an explanation would be needed as to why that was and what you were doing - assuming of course that they do have a period fixed by, as you say, the photos. Are you able to find this out before you write your appeal?

[Michael Browne]

 

I just tried to view photos on Islington parking website - image viewing unavailable at present due to security issue ?

 

Are you able to find this out before you write your appeal?

 

That'll be a no then. By the time he's written to ask for them and they've replied the discount will be gone.

 

Much better to assume no obs time and let the council prove otherwise. At least the discount will be preserved

[Baz1994]

Ok thanks again Michael and I will post up before sending.

 

I have now spoken to my boss, who is very understanding and who I know will pay if need be but I said I will at least contest / appeal the PCN.

[Baz1994]

Thanks for your input / comments Jamberson.

 

It may have been more than the ten minutes unattended but I just didn't make a note of the actual times being that early in the morning. This is the first time I have encountered this observation scenario but I am annoyed that I was not obstructing anyone and parked directly in front of restaurant delivery area, only parked on DYL's with no kerb markings and no sign of loading restrictions.

 

The only way I have of finding out was to look at the photographic evidence on-line but as I say there is a problem with their system. How convenient.

 

Anyway I sent them an e-mail requesting details and received a response advising that they aim to respond within 10 working days.

[Jamberson]

The problem you may face now is that you have used up your informal appeal with whatever you just sent, asking for details. I understand there is a problem with their system at the moment, but it might be fixed tonight, or you could call and ask in the morning - if they have you observed, what's the basis of the appeal?

 

I would still advise you try and find out what they have on you, rather than just assume this was a 'hit and run' ticket which wasn't issued correctly. As you confirm, the vehicle was there possibly more than ten minutes - say they have eight minutes observation recorded. If you just say you want proof, or accuse them of not observing you, you are bound to get nowhere and you've wasted a chance to submit a proper appeal. You needed to do some fact-finding first.

[Baz1994]

OK thanks again.

 

I will just appeal on the basis that I was making the delivery, parked on DYL's, no kerb markings.

 

Send copy of delivery note.

 

If don't win then will just pay-up and be done with and just learn from it.

[Baz1994]

The problem you may face now is that you have used up your informal appeal with whatever you just sent, asking for details. I understand there is a problem with their system at the moment, but it might be fixed tonight, or you could call and ask in the morning - if they have you observed, what's the basis of the appeal?

 

I would still advise you try and find out what they have on you, rather than just assume this was a 'hit and run' ticket which wasn't issued correctly. As you confirm, the vehicle was there possibly more than ten minutes - say they have eight minutes observation recorded. If you just say you want proof, or accuse them of not observing you, you are bound to get nowhere and you've wasted a chance to submit a proper appeal. You needed to do some fact-finding first.

 

The offence was that I was parked on DYL's.

 

Driver on Delivery signs clearly shown.

 

No observation times.

 

And seems that I lost my chance of an informal appeal due to the fact that I sent an e-mail advising that their website was not working to view photographic evidence.

 

[Jamberson]

No observation times.

 

Did they actually tell you they have no observation times on record?

[Baz1994]

Did they actually tell you they have no observation times on record?

 

All photos taken at same time as offence time dated on PCN.

 

No mention of observation times.

 

Confirmed offence was for parking on DYL's.

[Jamberson]

If they don't have you observed, you can probably get it overturned. If they do, you will struggle. I suggest you find out, but it's up to you. I don't see any way you can appeal it if they observed you for up to 10 minutes.

[Baz1994]

If they don't have you observed, you can probably get it overturned. If they do, you will struggle. I suggest you find out, but it's up to you. I don't see any way you can appeal it if they observed you for up to 10 minutes.

 

Ok thanks again Jamberson.

 

As stated no observation times given. Photos taken are all timed what was entered on PCN.

 

Did ask for confirmation but did not respond. Shall I ask again?

[Jamberson]

I would. You can appeal blind if you like but it would be better to know, so you can word the appeal properly. No observation time is a strong appeal on its own. If they do have one, you can appeal on the loading exemption, with an explanation of why it took a while (again, good to know how long they think you were there).

[Jamberson]

Sorry - I should add - DON'T ask in writing! They are likely to accept your question as your formal appeal and reject it. Give them a call.

[Baz1994]

ok and thanks again for your comments.

 

I did not know that by asking for photographic evidence and observation times is deemed as a formal appeal. I will bear that in mind with any future PCN's.

[Jamberson]

Anything you put in writing is likely to be treated as an appeal. That's why I always suggest fact-finding before you write anything in.

[Baz1994]

Thanks again and will bear that in mind next time.

 

I did attempt to access info on their website but system still down. A bit cheeky then when I only advised them of this and they replied with photos etc