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    • Oh god! How silly!   I had so many different tabs and word documents open , cutting and pasting different bits I think I’ve copied in the wrong one.   Just had to nip out. I’ll post the correct version ASAP! X
    • Thank you for your response. I've read through some of the threads, however I haven't found any in a similar situation to mine where the overall outcome of the investigation has been posted (whether it was an out of court settlement or a conviction that resulted in a criminal record).    I'm aware that what typically happens is that you're taken to court where they give you a £1000 fine and a criminal record of 12 months (or 11 years if its an enhanced DBS check). This is the information I received following contacting a the TFL legal advice team.   
    • urm.. that's a telecom defence?? why not adapt the one I pointed you too??    
    • Thank you all again.   I think the word story is quite apt as it is clear from the 29 points over 6 pages that my parents have insisted lots of frankly irrelevant and often untrue things have been included in the solicitors letter.   Here is me filling in the gaps!   There was a dispute over a will in respect of your grandfather's house but the dispute was eventually abandoned and it seems that the house was apportioned to your mother and her brother who presumably were the only two children. The will was unsigned and so we could say that the house passed to the two of them under the rules of intestacy.   Not abandoned, it went to court and the court decided it should be sold and the £ divided between my Mother and my Uncle who were the only two children. So maybe they did own it whilst on the market? You then decided to buy the house for £50,000 and presumably the money you paid was divided between your mother and your uncle – who were the owners of the house.   Correct, it went on the market, a few people viewed it, my parents were awkward towards these potential buyers and then I made the offer to the estate agent and purchased it. This was in 1999. We talking about 20 years ago here and so in respect of most legal questions I would have thought that some limitation period applied. (However the issue of the trust has been raised – and this wouldn't be affected by limitation) However, presumably the house was bought at a proper value given the market at the time and any work that it needed doing. Presumably the house was properly conveyed.   Exactly, 20 years is ridiculous, and during that time my Father could have purchased it from me, instead of purchasing their own council house, if they really wanted to it 'back' as they keep saying. Yes market value in need of work and all above board. Although a lot of things have passed – including home improvements, tenancies et cetera, from the story you have told us, neither your parents nor your uncle have been involved in this at all. My Uncle has also sadly passed away.   I obtained additional borrowing to fund the work needed in 2008 (not mentioned in letter obviously) and have found some receipts, emails and mortgage letter to back this up, but in the letter my parents claim they paid for all this and carried out the work as I ‘had little interest in the property’ also all correspondence from letting agent is to me, but in letter claims by Father did all these and ‘I merely singed the tenancy’ which is rubbish.   One weird thing, the garden shed is still full of my Grandad's tools and my parents have the only key to this, have visited it randomly and instructed a builder person we both know over the years to trim the hedges. This was always been behind my back and have asked them to let me know or I can do it. I spoke to him yesterday and they have always paid him cash, so no paper trail.   Now you have received a letter from your parents saying that the house is really theirs and that you have simply been holding it on trust for them and they now want it back. Is this a reasonable summary of what has happened?   Yes, although the ‘trust’ that is mentioned is literally something they have made up, assumed or otherwise. There is absolutely nothing to my knowledge of this kind in place.   Although you have written a fair bit about bills, tenancies, and that you have lived in your parents home for some of this 20 years, I'm not sure what relevance that has to the problem. I have to say that your explanation is very unclear. A bit rambling in fact. If you think that part of the story is relevant then maybe you'd like to express it all a little more clearly and say in what way you think it is relevant to the problem.   Reason being it is referred to in the letter and quite representative of the whole letter, rambling. My point was it is not true and I am the one who has paid for these. It’s almost like they are trying to paint me as someone collecting the rent money whilst the did all the hard work and paid for things. You are much more familiar with the story then I am but I don't see that those factors are terribly important on the brief understanding that I have. if if any money is owed to your parents because of you having lived with them et cetera then it seems to me that that is a separate matter and has nothing to do with your ownership of the property.   Agreed You say that you have received a letter from solicitors claiming first of all that there is a constructive trust or that you might be subject to a proprietary estoppel. In terms of the estoppel, that doctrine is only available in very particular circumstances and could not be used to attack you in any event. Estoppel, whether it is proprietary or promissory can only be used as a defence. So the question of estoppel in this situation is completely irrelevant, in my view, although I don't see any basis for one in any event.   Lets hope so So what remains is the possibility of a constructive trust. It seems to me to be highly unlikely that there is such a trust and I think that the first question needs to be asked is on what basis they consider that there is a constructive trust. Secondly, of course, even if there was a constructive trust, on the basis of what you have told us, it wouldn't only be your mother who was the beneficiary, it would also be your uncle. Furthermore, if you were a constructive trustee then at the very least you would be entitled to recover all of the expenses that you had laid out over 30 years – including the cost of the property plus interest – less any financial benefit that you had accrued from renting it out and so forth.   Good point about me being a trustee, if, such a thing were in place. I had a google of the meaning and I honestly don’t feel it meets any of the criteria. I'm not sure how good this analysis is. This is well out of my experience – but I would suggest that you consider it and see whether any of it rings true. I would also start making a very detailed account of all the money which you have spent over the years on the property and also a detailed account of all the benefits you have accrued from it. I wouldn't supply this to their solicitor but if you end up having to instruct your own lawyer then I'm sure that you may be asked for this if there is any suspicion that a constructive trust may exist. Frankly it sounds like a load of rubbish to me but we will be very interested if you will keep us up to date. So there you have it. No particular answers. Just a few unsupported and unqualified opinions     I do really appreciate your time and effort on this. Yes, when I read it all again, rubbish does spring to mind.   My parents have been very challenging to say the least and have no idea of the consequence of their actions. To be honest, they have almost shot themselves in the foot as there is so much detail in the letter, lots of which is untrue and I can prove this. If it ever got to court and I really hope it doesn’t, I can only think this would go against them.   I really do think the solicitor (who is the same one that rinsed them ££££ over the will) is just charging them for this letter, which may have been a good few hours with the unneeded detail, knowing fully well this wont go anywhere!   Another thing the letter requests that I confirm I wont sell, rent out or re-mortgage the property!!! I have literally just started a new mortgage and need tenants to pay the rent, I don't think this request hold any water at all?   I hope this does come to nothing and hopefully helps others along the way!
    • god no never invite pointless letter tennis   dx  
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apd100

I paid my speeding fine, now find they returned payments & its 5xgreater now - help!

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I was caught doing 51 in a 40 zone by a mobile speed camera in Feb 2016.

I paid the fine of £100 and I have the receipt of payment and confirmation on my emails and the money was taken from my account as expected.

 

Now, 7 months later, I

received 2 letters through the post this morning regarding the same incident in February.

One from the courts saying the have endorsed my license with 6 points

and one from the DVLA with a fine for £569 which includes a fine of £440 + Victim Surge charge of £44 and "costs" of £85.

It also states there has been a court hearing in my absence on 21st September 2016.

It really doesnt say much else

 

I've done some investigating and found that on 29th August 2016 the fine I paid over 3 months prior was returned to my bank account.

 

what I can gather from the vague letters is that, more than 3 months after I paid my fine and was given a receipt, the money was returned to my bank without my knowledge

 

now they're treating me as if I haven't paid my fine and increased my points and my fine more than 5x the original amount.

I can't ring any legal advice as they're all closed over the weekend and so is the DVLA and I'm stressed out!

 

Do you think they'll reverse the points and fine once explained?

Has anybody has any dealings like this with this before?

 

Thanks

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It would not be a DVLA problem,

it will be with the office that dealt with the speeding offence that you need to contact, and find out why the £100 was returned and the matter dealt with at court.

 

Some reasons are that the driving licence was not submitted, or the holder had 9 penalty points on their licence at the time of the offence.

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Thanks for your response.

My receipt shows that payment was made to the Ministry of Justice through their online fine payment system.

I wasn't required to send off my drivers license though I can't remember if I had to enter my driving license number or anything. Thanks all the same, I guess I will ring MoJ now, no doubt their offices will be closed.

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Closed until monday.

Do you have any ideas what the outcome may be?

Can I really be accountable for a refund on my fixed penalty 3 months after I paid it without any warnings or letters?

Seems really unfair?

 

p.s I only had 3 points on my license - the ones issued to me at the time I paid my £100 fine.

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You usually do have to submit your driving licence, and that could be the reason the matter was dealt with at court.

 

The amount of the fine and 6 points sounds more like the penalty for failing to identify the driver, rather than a speeding offence, so it could be an error on their part.

 

You need to start with the office that dealt with the speeding matter first, the DVLA and Ministry of Justice only process information sent to them from that office.

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Thanks, I'm really grateful for the information! Atleast I know where to start come monday morning.

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find out from your bank why the payments were returned too

 

dx


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I've moved you to the speeding offence forum rather than DVLA too


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I've just remembered, along with the fixed penalty letter came an admittance form that requested my driving license number and for me to admit that I was the driver at the time etc.

 

 

I posted this information off at the time.

It didn't require for me to send my driving license as it's all done online now.

 

 

So all I can do is hope that they accept the error on their side. sigh.

I'm going to contact my bank now. Thanks

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I have managed to find some information on a website called [removed] which directly relates to my situation. I have pasted what it says below in hope it helps anyone else who finds themselves in my situation where the MoJ have failed to receive the paper part to the fine in their mail.

 

Section 172 Section 172 Defence Approach 3 - Outbound Post

 

Section 172 of the 1988 Road Traffic Act requires the registered keeper of a vehicle to supply the identity of a driver. If you fail to do this then the penalty is 6 points and a fine of up to £1,000. The court also has the power to impose a driving ban but rarely uses it prefering 6 points and large fines instead.

 

This web site was founded over 15 years ago to help people with legal motoring issues. Over the years we have had millions of visitors and have seen every type of offense thousands of times over. Accordingly we are well positioned to provide real world advice.

 

We can give you advice to help you avoid unjust points, fines and bans.

 

Section 172 issues. Normally this occurs after a Notice of Intended Prosecution (commonly know as a NIP) has been sent to a vehicles registered keeper along with a request to identify the driver (the Section 172 bit). If this is not returned or the driver is not named then you can expect to be in breach of the Section 172 legislation and if found guilty you will get 6 points and a big fine (up to £1,000).

 

The request to identify the driver would seem to conflict with the normal approach in law that you are not required to incriminate yourself. This has been challenged all the way up to the European Courts and has been rejected by the Courts - so this approach is not a solution to your problem.

 

You have three main defences to a Section 172 issue:

 

Section 172 Defence Approach 1 - Reasonable Diligence

 

Section 172 Defence Approach 2 - Inbound Post

 

Section 172 Defence Approach 3 - Outbound Post

 

 

 

Section 172 Defence Approach 3 - Outbound Post

 

So if Option 1 of Reasonal Diligence does not apply and neither does Option 2 of not receiving the request in the post - what is the final option for you?

 

At this point we must then assume that you received the paperwork and filled it out and returned it to the correct address.

 

You are not under an obligation to send it via registered post - just normal post.

 

Accordingly you have complied with your obligations and it must have either gone astray in the post or at their offices.

 

This is still a valid defence.

 

You just need to be certain that it was posted to them.

 

They may well challenge this but they need to prove that you did not post it back and that is almost impossible for them as if you are certain that you posted it they have little to challenge you on.

 

This is a somewhat simplified version of events and revolves around the volume of letters that the Post Office lose each year.

 

As with the previous option Section 172 Defence Approach 2 - Inbound Post you will need to spend considerable time and effort to contact the Post Office to gather evidence on the percentage and number of letters that are lost in your area.

 

Understandably the Post Office are not keen to hand out this information.

 

This information will then need to be structured into a formal letter and sent back to them.

 

It is probably best to send it this time via recorded post to ensure it has arrived.

 

To use this defense you will really again need some expert legal help to get a good result.

 

Many years ago we did have template letters on this site for people to use, but we again found that they were overused and were ignored by the authorities.

 

Beware of template letters on the web as some seem to just get the authorities backs up and then they will not give up.

 

In summary you have 3 options at this point:

 

You can accept the 6 points and a big fine.

 

You can take the advice above and try and do it yourself. We see that in around 30% of cases the DIY approach will work. Sadly in around 70% of cases it does not and you end up in court and get 6 points and a big fine. If you challenge it and lose the fine is normally near to £1,000.

 

Or the option with the best chance of success (90%+) is to engage a specialist solicitor and get them to do all the work. As they tend to charge less than your fine and the huge issue of getting 6 points this is the best approach.

 

There are NO other options - you need to select which ever option best matches your situation and get on with it. The longer you leave it the worse it will get. If you do nothing you will end up in court and get 6 points and a large fine.

 

The best advice we can give is to get a specialist proven Motoring Solicitor to help you get a good result - 90%+ of cases they will get dropped.

 

Email me here and we will get them to call you - do not forget to include your telepone number in the email if you want a swift response.

Edited by dx100uk
sorry cant carry external links - dx

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That form would only have been the requirement to identify the driver - s.172, Road Traffic Act 1988, not to accept the offer of the fixed penalty, which may be the cause of your problem.

 

The usual process is that on receipt of that form, depending on the circumstances, they make an offer of an awareness course, fixed penalty, or summons to court.

 

It could be that they did not receive/lost the s.172 reply and why the court case was for failing to identify the driver rather than speeding.

 

I doubt if your bank would know why the £100 was repaid, only that it was a transfer.

 

I have managed to find some information on a website called [removed] which directly relates to my situation. I have pasted what it says below in hope it helps anyone else who finds themselves in my situation where the MoJ have failed to receive the paper part to the fine in their mail.

.

 

It's not the Ministry of Justice that deal with matter, they only deal with the payment. The form needs to be returned to the relevent speed enforcement office.

 

If you did not know of the court case, it is possible to make a 'statutory declaration' (s.14, Magistrates Courts Act 1980) at a court or solicitor, which will allow the case to be re-heard, and allow you to give your circumstanes.

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That form would only have been the requirement to identify the driver - s.172, Road Traffic Act 1988, not to accept the offer of the fixed penalty, which may be the cause of your problem.

 

The usual process is that on receipt of that form, depending on the circumstances, they make an offer of an awareness course, fixed penalty, or summons to court.

 

It could be that they did not receive/lost the s.172 reply and why the court case was for failing to identify the driver rather than speeding.

 

I doubt if your bank would know why the £100 was repaid, only that it was a transfer.

 

Roger that.

100% there was no offer for a speed awareness course, because that's what I was expecting to receive and was annoyed I wasn't offered one.

 

 

I don't exactly remember what form I filled in other than I DID accept responsibility.

I named myself as the driver and filled in all the boxes of information on that sheet and posted it back and paid my fine online. I really couldn't have done anything more.

 

It's not the Ministry of Justice that deal with matter, they only deal with the payment. The form needs to be returned to the relevent speed enforcement office.

 

The form was posted back to the address stated on the form I filled in.

I doubt I've sent it to the wrong place.

I can't say for sure as I can't tell you the address I wrote on the envelope now with it being so long ago, all I can say is it's incredibly doubtful I've sent it to the wrong place.

 

I don't have any of the initial charge paperwork anymore as I had great pleasure in shredding it once I'd dealt with it (big mistake now, I know).

 

 

I do however, still have my reference numbers which I saved on my computer.

 

 

It was from the Lancashire constabulary, though I've no idea if this is who I should be contacting?

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It is:

 

Lancashire Partnership for Road Safety

Central Processing Unit

 

01772 410900, 9am - 11am & 1pm - 3pm, Mon. to Fri.

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Thank you!

I'm pretty much set on going to speak to a solicitor come monday morning.

 

 

Would you recommend speaking to a free legal advice service first?

 

 

Would they also act on my behalf?

 

 

Obviously I will ring the Lancashire Constabulary first.

 

 

I'm just not counting on getting anywhere with them.

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Start with the Lancashire enforcement office, they will know what letters where sent and where.

 

At your speed the guidlines are the offer of a fixed penalty, which would have been sent the when they received the completed s.172 form, to be returned with your licence.

 

Had you moved since February?

They had your address to send the NIP & s.172, but you received nothing from them since?

 

Often if they do not receive a reply from the s.172 form,

the processing office send a 'reminder',

if there is no reply to that a summons follows -

which you should have received.

 

 

If you have not moved,

check with them the address they used,

which if it is incorrect would explain why you had not received anything and helpful if you make the Statutory Declaration.

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I've been getting a lot of great advice from both yourselves and other people.

So thank you so much for that!

 

Where I'm at now is that,

I have indeed filled and returned back the forms sent to me in march.

I'm not sure it matters exactly what forms I filled in at this point,

more that I didn't include my physical driving license in the letter before I sent it back.

 

I didn't include it because I believed I didn't have to,

otherwise I'd of had no problem including it as it's just been sat here on my computer desk all this time.

 

So since all this, I haven't received or heard a peep from them in almost 6 months.

Clearly I haven't received a letter I should have received informing me I didn't include my license.

I haven't moved address in years so it's no mix up like that.

I just simply haven't received anything so I haven't known of any issue.

 

I'm going to ring the courts in the morning and ask why I was put in court without my knowledge and what for exactly.

Then I'm taking the information and any paperwork and evidence to a solicitors in Blackpool.

 

Hopefully they'll be able to give me some solid direction or deal with it for me and have the charges reversed on the grounds of me receiving no warning.

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The court won't necessarily know that you did not know of the case, all they do is deal the information sent to them by the Lancashire processing office - they deal with the application of the summons which is sent then to the address used by the processing office.

 

If all you ever received was the NIP/s.172 form which you posted back, a possibility is that they lost/mislaid it and made a mistake in the address for any follow up correspendence and summons.

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True, so would you suggest ringing the Lancashire constabulary first?

 

 

I'm being told to ring the courts immediately and request a statutory declaration.

To be honest I'm completely up in the air with it all.

I have no idea what I'd be asking for 'exactly'.

I'm completely clueless when it comes to the law, probably from being too good of a citizen? Lol.

 

As far as I'm aware, it's to start a new prosecution and to plea guilty to the initial crime,

hopefully resulting in the added charges and points being written off.

 

 

Beyond that I have no idea to what expect,

how the phone call to go and what I'm going to be asked.

Maybe I'm just best seeking legal advice before contacting the courts.

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(District Judge's handbook)

Statutory declarations may be made under s.14 of the Magistrates’ Courts Act 1980 where the applicant declares that he did not know of proceedings issued against him by way of summons. If the declaration is accepted, the proceedings to date will be cancelled but the prosecution has a discretion to start proceedings again. You do not have to consider the truth of the declaration but simply certify that it has been made.

 

Checklist:

 

● Application made within 21 days of the date when knowledge of the proceedings first came to notice with discretion for court to accept late applications.

● Applicant warned of consequences of making a false declaration.

● Applicant signs and dates the written declaration.

● Applicant recites declaration (‘I do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that the contents of this my declaration are correct and I make this solemn declaration conscientiously believing the same to be true’).

● Declaration signed by district judge.

 

 

simple ring the court

they'll tell you what you need to do and where to go etc


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Thanks you, I can't believe how helpful you've all been.

 

 

I'm going to make a contribution to this site out of next months wage.

 

 

It's hard to believe people are so willing to give up their time to help people in this day and age.

 

 

To all of you who have spared me your time I really really appreciate it.

 

 

I will respond again tomorrow once I've made some calls and let you all know of my progress.

 

 

Once again, thanks!!

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True, so would you suggest ringing the Lancashire constabulary first?

 

 

I'm being told to ring the courts immediately and request a statutory declaration.

To be honest I'm completely up in the air with it all.

 

You need to contact the court to arrange to make a Statutory Declaration, but also the Lancashire processing office to try to establish why you did not receive any further letters or the summons, their reason may help when you make your application.

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two hours later I get off the phone.

 

I first rang Preston Magistrates where a very nice woman called Linda dealt with my enquiry.

She identified that I was within my rights to apply for a Statutory Declaration but she must transfer me through to the Blackburn courts as they deal with it from there.

 

Once she transferred me through I was greeted by a woman who asked me if I would be pleading guilty to which I agreed I would be, she informed me it would be a section 165 I'd need but I need to ring another number to have that done which turned out to be Marstons who oddly had no idea what a section 165 was and had to call me back once they knew.

 

Marstons rang me back shortly after and I explained the whole thing again and they informed me I actually just need to ring my local magistrates and ask them to review my case.. "just ask them to review my case? No need to mention a section 165 or anything?" I asked. "No, just ask them for a review", she said.

 

ringing my local Blackpool Magistrates and asking for a review went down like a brick.

She had no idea what I was on about so I explained everything from the beginning and she said she will ring me back either today or tomorrow once she found out some things.

 

I rang back Linda at Preston Magistrates because she seemed the most human and understanding and she had no idea what a section 165 was but found out for me while I held and it was for a review of the fine which I didnt want because I just wanted a Statutory Declaration.

 

She asked me to speak to the CPU first and ask them exactly why it was taken to court which I did and found out it was indeed because I didn't include my physical driving license

 

I asked them if it's normal for them to not send out a letter of warning and that I'm only human I make mistakes sometimes and she said it's normal for there to be no written warnings?!

 

I rang Linda back and she reconfirmed my entitlement for a Stat and put me back through to Blackburn where I got a man this time who was happy to provide me with a court time and date (on wednesday).

 

She said the main thing I should query on the day is the rise in penalty points when I was offered 3 points and signed and paid for it.

 

However, for me it's equally as important that the fee's be dropped as I simply can't afford to be paying out nearly £600 for no intentional wrong doing of my own.

 

now I need to write a list of all my issues and build a case ready for wednesday!

 

Wish me luck :-D

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If the case was because you did not enclose your licence it would have been for speeding, and not failing to identify, but 6 points is above the guidelines for 51 in a 40. For that speed they are 3 - 4 points, and If you plead guilty I would expect about a £200-£300 fine.

 

Did they have your correct address, or give any reason why you may not have receive the summons.

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]Why should I be fined more than my initial fine? Isn't there any sort of law than states people should be given a chance to correct one single mistake on a form before being put in court in their absence? I didn't check what details they had of mine but I can't even fathom what other details they might have. They made no comment on why I didn't receive a summons, despite me asking.

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There was no original 'fine', an awareness course or a fixed penalty as an alternative to prosecution for can only be offered if certain conditions are met.

 

Without receipt of the completed s.172 form identifying the driver, a prosecution for speeding would not be possible, so if your case was for speeding, they would have received the form.

 

Have you checked with the Lancashire office that they sent documents to the correct address? If there was an admin error, it is mitigation to ask the court to consider the same level of penalty as the fixed penalty.

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