Meeting after argument at work.

[dcc59]

Evening all, I have a quick question for you all.

 

 

I got into a heated argument with one of my store Directors today.

 

 

Also present was the store Manager who was not involved just a witness.

 

After lunch came to me to ask if we could have a chat tomorrow morning about a few ideas he has.

 

 

When I pushed him for details he said

" I want to chat about the upset we had this morning, nothing sinister just a chat like men do "

 

 

I then asked if this is a formal meeting or not? his reply

" the store manager will be taking notes and the contents will be put in your personnel file ".

 

 

Now I'm not overly concerned by this but is it legal for the accuser to investigate the accused?

 

I look forward to your replies.

[unclebulgaria67]

If it is a formal meeting for disciplinary purposes, you should be told this and you can take with you a colleage, union or legal rep to act as your witness/note taker, so they can't run the meeting in an unfair way, with the management notes not reflecting what was said. You can refuse the meeting, if you are not able to take someone with you if that is not possible to record the meeting by sound or video.

 

It is not that unusual for the accuser to do the investigation/hold the meeting. But it has to be a fair process. It would not be appropriate, if there was any physical contact or abuse of any kind in the argument. For example one worker claiming inappropriate contact or abuse towards them to then be interviewed by that person.

[obiter dictum]

This seems to me to be nothing more than a fact finding meeting rather than a Formal. It is unusual to go straight to a formal as taking notes has been mentioned and Personnel file, but they have messed up. It is usual to give 48 hours notice so you have the opportunity to source and be be accompanied by a Trade Union rep or a work colleague. 24 hours notice is unreasonable

[dcc59]

Thanks for your response, The meeting has been and gone and I'm still there. The accuser had a pr-determined agenda but it didn't quite go how he planned. He was relying on myself to give a full blown account of what was said during argument. I just stuck to giving short answers throughout the meeting and he lost his entire train of thought and ended up repeating himself over and over. There was one thing that concerns me which is that there is a piece of paper with my signature for the job number that caused the argument. I can quite honestly say that this piece of paper does not or has not ever existed. The meeting was ended with the following statement " this meeting is closed pending the piece of paper being found " . what I would like to know is there a time scale for this alleged signed piece of paper to show up? Also if it does not exist what would you suggest my reaction should be to this accusation as it would appear that I am being held responsible for it not being found.

[king12345]

Sounds like they want to find an excuse to get rid of you.

They will probably falsify your signature in that piece of paper that doesn't exist.

Seen it done many times.

If they do that, make sure you get a photocopy of it signed by the manager.

If it is an official document, I.e. fire safety check records, you can report it to the police for tampering with official documents.

The police won't take any action but they will give you a reference number that you can then use in a tribunal if worse comes to worse.

I always say that attack is the best defence against these bullies and they will back up when threatened with criminal charges.

Go with the flow and wait for their next move

[MrHat]

If it's to 'chat like men do', there should be no notes. The two of you should go for a coffee or beer and resolve your differences imo

[dcc59]

That's how it should be! Nothing has been said all week so I thin

k he has messed up big time. The Big boss has been back a week and hasn't mentioned anything, so I wonder if she knows what has gone on.

[dcc59]

The piece of paper does not exist! He has made a rod for his own back.

[san_d]

"A chat like men do" are these textual words?

 

Sounds a bit dodgy. Why not chat like women do?

[Hammy1962]

"A chat like men do" are these textual words?

 

Sounds a bit dodgy. Why not chat like women do?

 

Not enough time in the day for that!!

 

H

[dcc59]

lol, They are his words! I have a feeling he is going down the disciplinary route. I found some stuff from my personnel file on the copier in an open to all room today. He has been copying things from previous assessments. If this happens is he allowed to chair hearing as he was directly involved in original fallout?

[Old Cogger]

keep copy of everything relative for a tribunal if it comes to it, also diary of events and statements made etc.m

 

 

been there wrote the book and wrote the review (& Read It), cost company in the end Max payout as they ran a day before a Tribunal, with a question do I want my job back> ? I said no as the Store Director was bias & too many yes men around him trying to cause trouble, but like to of seen his face when he had to report to managers at weekly staff meeting the takings for the week & minus figure = explain that amount to them! trouble when big company take over and stick their own upshot know all Store Directors in (and they have not run a Department store before).

[donarebun]

l I found some stuff from my personnel file on the copier in an open to all room today.

 

 

If you found out that they have not complied with the Data Protection Act and have left your personal data on the copier then I would say make a big meal out of it.

 

Like King 12345 said "attack is the best defence against these bullies"

[dcc59]

Hi all, had an interesting day today. I had a disciplinary hearing this morning and it looks like King 12345 called it! When I first went in the original boss who took The " informal chat like men do " interview was sat there. I asked why he was there and he said " as the investigating officer " I asked for him to leave as I wasn't happy he was there. After a few minutes and some discussion he left. They laid out their case and started with the questions. After the first few we came to the main subject, the missing signed piece of paper. I was presented with a " copy " of the original which had my signature on. I asked to see the original copy and was told " we do not have it " I asked for it again and I was told " this is a photo of the original ". I then questioned the who took the photo and I was told it was the original accuser. After I pointed out to them that this is not allowed to be presented as evidence and only original documents can be submitted we moved on after it had been minuted. The next step of questions started with passages from his statement, I questioned when this statement was written and it was written after the informal like men chat. Surely this cannot be submitted as evidence as he already knew my stance on this before writing his fabrication of events? I look forward to your thoughts on this matter.

[dcc59]

As for the breach of Data I am meeting about this tomorrow.

[king12345]

Did you recognise the piece of paper from the picture as something you have signed?

Or did they photoshop it?

Is it an official document of some legal importance, for example daily fire safety check?

If it is, try to get hold of that picture in any way possible.

It is a criminal offence to tamper with official documents and many managers in my time have been forced to resign over this.

[dcc59]

The pic has certainly been photoshopped! As for the piece of paper I have never seen it. I asked to see the photo and the date stamp from his phone but got more chance of hell freezing over. After closer inspection of copy you can definitely see the way it's been manipulated.

The document is a store policy document and has to remain on file for 3 months. Also until yesterday there was not any mention that the photo existed. In fact in his statement he states it can' t be found!

[king12345]

In this case you have nothing to fear, unless they're so stupid to print this piece of paper.

If you could get hold of it you would have them by the family jewels.

Let them know that you want a copy of that document and that you intend to press for criminal charges if found to have been tampered with.

They'll immediately back off with the excuse that they haven't found the original and can't proceed.

At that point go on the attack: ask for that picture to be sent to you.

They'll probably refuse.

If the picture existence has been noted in the meeting minutes, I suggest you ask for the minutes which must be given to you and then issue a SAR to obtain this picture.

Also, I record every meeting with my phone because you'll find that the official minutes are never a true reflection of what it is really said.

With the recording you can challenge the minute word by word and don't even have to tell them you have it.

I usually do this when attending meetings:

1. Start recording.

2. Enter the room and sit down

3. Take pen and paper and place in on the table.

4. Say exactly this: "I will take a record of this meeting unless you objet to it" while holding the pen on the paper.

5. The mugs all say: "No problem" thinking that I'm going to take some written notes

6. During the meeting I scribble a lot of stuff on the paper

7. If anything controversial comes up at a later date a give them a transcript of what was said

8. In extreme cases, when someone is about to lose their job I let them know about the audio recording which they agreed to.

9. They're b@lloxed

10. They back off and swear to never attend a meeting where I'm representing someone.

 

Please note that point 8, 9 and 10 only happened once.

The senior manager who was after this female employee for flipping at his sexual advances, strangely decided to take early retirement before we could submit a sexual harassment case.

He disappeared from work in 24 hours, never to be seen again.

I can't stress it enough: managers are frustrated bullies who have very sad lives outside work and most times they're not even in charge of their own toilet breaks at home.

They'll go after weak preys at work and bully them relentlessly; they really enjoy this.

But when they find someone who attacks them without fear and with evidence of wrongdoing in hand, they cowardly back off and start looking for another prey.

Attack is the best defence.

[dcc59]

Many thanks for your reply King12345, I like the way you think. I actually got a brief look at the photo today The Director showed how arrogant he is by saying " here is the picture I took now you can see it is genuine " I asked him to send it to me and the answer was " no ". What I did manage to see it looks different to the paper copy they presented during the meeting. I already have the minutes from both meetings so no issues on that side. During their fact finding meeting I asked to see the document and it clearly states in the minutes that they don't have it, also there was no mention of a photo being available. This seems to confirm that this photo was taken at some point between the 2 meetings. I will put in a SAR as soon as possible. The place I work in is a Franchise and both Directors are there on a daily basis. Do I have to put both their names on the request and do I still have to send it to the registered office?

[dcc59]

Also do I sign it?

[donarebun]

Hi,

 

I just need to understand something; is the picture being used as evidence against you?

 

if so then they have to show you the original.

 

No need for SAR

 

Just send a formal letter demanding the picture and claim that their refusal and continuing refusal is causing you serious distress which amounts to harassment.

 

That is preferable as it is faster than a SAR and there is no loophole they can try and exploit.

[donarebun]

That way they will have a claim of harassment hanging over their head even if they don't continue the disciplinary process.

[dcc59]

Thanks for your reply. Disciplinary has already happened. The copy of photo was used as evidence along with his statement made after informal meeting. There was not any mention of photo before disciplinary meeting. They have also added performance related stuff to the list, there was never any mention of these issues before disciplinary. Surely they would have to hold a fact gathering meeting before including anything else. The performance issues are extremely petty from extra cig breaks to not attending morning huddles which have never been a problem in my 10.5 years there.

[Emmzzi]

if the disciplinay has already happened are you waiting for the outcome at the moment?

[dcc59]

Yes I will know tomorrow.