Counterfeit money and who is responsible ?

[trebormoinet]

Well I like to think myself super cautious when it comes to dealing with money but I recently discovered 2 fake £20 notes amongst a wad of notes I received for selling a mobile phone.

 

Did some retail therapy around town then I went to my local supermarket and brought some bits and bobs and returned home.

 

Later on that day I went back to the same store and grabbed some groceries, after leaving the store a member of staff came running screaming and shouting for me to stop, felt well embarrassed to say the least and I patted my pockets just in case I had somehow put something in my pocket by accident.

 

When we got back to the store they explained that I had used a fake £20 to buy the goods and showed me a £20 note, now I knew from her manner and obvious experience handling cash that it was a fake note, but to me it looked absolutely real.

 

They then snatched my bags off me and asked me for the change which I was in the process of removing from my pocket and again they snatched that off me, felt like a right criminal, "its the second one we had today" said the assistant and refused to give me the note back.

 

I asked for a receipt for the note at which point the manageress gave me the note back and said I should take it to the post which was fair enough and her attitude was far more reasonable than the staff member who was treating me like some sort of underworld figure, this is my local store I use it 2-3 times a day.

 

Any ways alarm bells started ringing and when I got back and googled I discovered it was indeed a fake £20 and amongst the bundle of notes I discovered 1 more.

 

At this point I felt sick, I received £400 for my phone and £40 of this was fake notes, then it struck me. I had been in the store earlier and used a £20 note from the bundle,could it be that it was another fake.

 

Question is should I have given them the money back, I know morally the answer is yes but legally do I have to return the money once they had accepted the fake note, for that matter if I contacted the buyer who told me he did not realise the notes were fake, would I also been in the same position as the shop keeper, at best a civil case ?

 

I had spent some of the money before this incident in various stores around town, now I am not sure if any of that was fake but I did not have any problems so I can only hope it was genuine else I have become a major distributor of counterfeit money in my area.

[obiter dictum]

You can normally get away with having one fake note on your possession, two stretching it, any more will cause you problems. I would go to the local old bill with the wad of cash and explain where you got it. With CCTV cameras everywhere it looks like you are trying to pass dud notes all over town

[unclebulgaria67]

You can normally get away with having one fake note on your possession, two stretching it, any more will cause you problems. I would go to the local old bill with the wad of cash and explain where you got it. With CCTV cameras everywhere it looks like you are trying to pass dud notes all over town

 

I once had a £20 fake note from a NatWest service till and Banks are supposed to scan all the notes they handle. Banks will not take the notes back and swap them, so you either face the loss or spend it in a shop where they don't check them.

 

As far as i know, the law is that if a shop accepts a note as correct currency, if the customer is not committing a crime deliberately passing a fake note, that the shop cannot do anything about it a later time. It is the shops loss. They can of course report you to the Police to see whether they want to investigate.

[trebormoinet]

As far as i know, the law is that if a shop accepts a note as correct currency, if the customer is not committing a crime deliberately passing a fake note, that the shop cannot do anything about it a later time. It is the shops loss. They can of course report you to the Police to see whether they want to investigate.

 

That is the way I see it, I used the note in good faith, they accepted it, so it is for them to absorb the loss,as I have absorbed the loss from the buyer.

 

So really that does leave me with little chance of recovering my phone or replacement of fake notes by involving the police, they had already mentioned they had just sold a car, in hindsight I think that is a cover story in case the police did show up, I would hazard a guess it is a valid defence to as to why they might have a bundle of fakes notes, as is my genuine defence of recently selling a mobile phone.

 

I wonder if I could put them up on Ebay as fine examples of modern day counterfeiting and stand alone works of art, say £30 each.

[BazzaS]

I wonder if I could put them up on Ebay as fine examples of modern day counterfeiting and stand alone works of art, say £30 each.

 

Not according to the Bank of England, as you would be "holding on to it" to do so, or "passing it on".

http://www.bankofengland.co.uk/banknotes/Documents/kyb_lo_res.pdf

What should I do if I think I have a counterfeit note?

Counterfeit notes are worthless. It is a criminal offence to knowingly hold onto or pass on counterfeit notes. If you suspect a note is counterfeit, take it to the police as soon as possible. They will give you a receipt and send the note to the Bank of England for analysis. If the note is genuine, you will be reimbursed.

[steampowered]

That is the way I see it, I used the note in good faith, they accepted it, so it is for them to absorb the loss,as I have absorbed the loss from the buyer.

I don't think this is right. You have a contract with the store which requires you to pay for the goods. You haven't paid for the goods. So the shop is perfectly entitled to ask for payment.

 

I think you are entitled to claim the £40 back from the buyer of the phone. Though of course it would be difficult to prove he gave you fake notes if he disputes this. The buyer of the phone would in turn be entitled to claim the money back from the buyer of his car. Ultimately the chain would go on until it reaches the fraudster or the fraudster cannot be located.

 

As far as i know, the law is that if a shop accepts a note as correct currency, if the customer is not committing a crime deliberately passing a fake note, that the shop cannot do anything about it a later time. It is the shops loss. They can of course report you to the Police to see whether they want to investigate.

I don't think this is a good idea. Trying to pay for goods using a note which you know to be fake is fraud.

 

I also think this would be the criminal offence of making off without payment, since you know that payment using real notes is required but you are trying to palm off a fake note (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/31/section/3/1996-12-18?timeline=true).

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/31/section/3/1996-12-18?timeline=true

[unclebulgaria67]

I don't think this is right. You have a contract with the store which requires you to pay for the goods. You haven't paid for the goods. So the shop is perfectly entitled to ask for payment.

 

I think you are entitled to claim the £40 back from the buyer of the phone. Though of course it would be difficult to prove he gave you fake notes if he disputes this. The buyer of the phone would in turn be entitled to claim the money back from the buyer of his car. Ultimately the chain would go on until it reaches the fraudster or the fraudster cannot be located.

 

 

I don't think this is a good idea. Trying to pay for goods using a note which you know to be fake is fraud.

 

I also think this would be the criminal offence of making off without payment, since you know that payment using real notes is required but you are trying to palm off a fake note (http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/31/section/3/1996-12-18?timeline=true).

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1978/31/section/3/1996-12-18?timeline=true

 

Yes if you knowlingly passed on or kept hold of a counterfeit note, it would be a criminal offence. Ignorance of the law is no defence.

 

Being that most people who are told by a shop that they have a fake note would not go to the Police or destroy it, then i suspect that in ignorance they just put it back in their purses/wallets with other notes. The note is then used again and it is circulation again. Not saying this is correct, but faced with a £20 loss, i am guessing what most people would do.

[trebormoinet]

I don't think this is right. You have a contract with the store which requires you to pay for the goods. You haven't paid for the goods. So the shop is perfectly entitled to ask for payment.

Which brings me round to my main question,in your view is it a criminal or civil route they would have to go through in order to recover the money.

[unclebulgaria67]

I think you contact whoever gave you the £20 notes and advise them that they gave you some fake notes and either they replace them with real notes or you will have no option but to contact the Police as that is what the law says you must do.

[steampowered]

Which brings me round to my main question,in your view is it a criminal or civil route they would have to go through in order to recover the money.

They could go down either route I suppose. The civil route is more direct; but the criminal route is easier (as they can just let the police deal with it rather than having to initiate civil court proceedings).

[obiter dictum]

The obvious question being how can you prove the fake notes came from the person you sold the goods too??

 

I must agree leave this up to the Old Bill to sort out

[trebormoinet]

First thing I did was ring the guy but all calls are being forwarded to voice mail so I think I will be at a dead end there.

 

I could block the phone I guess but I am presuming it has been sold on already and I would be depriving an innocent party so I have chosen not to.

 

I have never come across a fake note before or if I have I did not realise it.

 

At least now I can spot a forged note so lesson learned but even though I know it is a fake it still looks real enough to me, and people I have showed had no clue it was fake until I pointed out the clues.

 

Where I live no one uses £50 pound notes, in fact it is difficult if not impossible to get shops to take them so the only time I ever get a £20 note is from cash point or bank, so checking my change has never been a problem, was in London recently and surprised that £50 notes were as common as £5 notes here, no one batted an eyelid when someone brought packet of cigarettes with a £50, here there would be major security alert.

 

Makes one wonder how many £20 notes are circulating in the capital and how many people are unaware they are acting as unwitting employees of criminal gangs by circulating these fake notes.

 

If everyone did a mass check in the UK I suspect it would run into billions and I wonder how many would hand them in.

 

If everyone did it would probably tie up the whole force for decades.

 

Easy way to check is look at the silver stitching that runs down the side,hold the note up to the light if it is a continues line your fine if it is a broken line, not good.