CCA request 1980's Card ignored? now wescot chasing

[sidley]

Thanks dx,

 

Just looked at letters again, it just says "our client". No mention of who their client is, apart from the box on the right hand side of page.

 

Sidley

[dx100uk]

but it means they have a client

and that client owns the debt

 

only the owner of a debt can actually 'do' anything.

 

so whomever is writing using the word client

can in effect be totally ignored.

[sidley]

Many thanks dx.

 

I sent off a CCA to them the same time as Halifax.

So far no response!

That was on November 14th.

 

Usually, I get a letter saying that they are going back to the OC for the documents, but this time silence.

 

Looking back at Wescots letters in their box it stated "Our Client". Cabot gives the impression they own it, probably just a ruse.

 

Sidley

[fletch70]

Hi Sidley

 

Just to really confuse the issue , many debt purchasers have several different 'trading styles' or as it has been explained a row of desks in the same office all belonging to a different style.

 

It often happens that Bank A sells a debt ( assigns absolutely) to company B who then appoint DCA C to collect , however company b and company c are all part of the same company D or sometimes company B owns company C.

 

Confused...you won't be after this weeks episode....

[Bazooka Boo]

Yep, the best way to find out who it is you're receiving begging letters off, is to look at the bottom of the missive, and read the small print, quite often it will say 'gophers r us is a trading name of gophers 4 u'.

[sidley]

Thanks fletch & Bazooka,

 

Why do companies use such a web of names? I've read here, that some solicitors firms are actually owned by the mother company of both DCA and solicitors.

 

Can you also explain why some DCA's change their names so frequently, looking up the FCA register it seems there has been Marlin, then Marlin I; marlin II; Marlin III and so on. Is it because they get deregistered for some reason? Or is it some tax reason?

 

 

Great big thanks.

 

sidley (confused)

[Bazooka Boo]

It's simply to exploit a debtors lack of knowledge and make them believe that their debt has been escalated when in actual fact it's done nothing of the sort.

[dx100uk]

typically its to confuse 'debtors'

- they like to call them 'mugs'

 

 

...in to believing the debt is somehow progressing up some legal chain toward them taking away your mothers budgie by force or you losing everything because of some cleverly worded letter

sent on a different letterhead

using normally the same printer ,

the same PC

but just another bloke at the next desk in a different coloured skirt

 

 

just done ever forget...

a DCA or their fake/tame solicitor

IS NOT A BAILIFF

 

 

they have absolutely no legal powers whatsoever

that you or I don't have.

 

 

all we can do if someone owes us money

is to start a county claim

that's all a DCA can do.

 

 

dx

[fletch70]

I think you are too nice about them dx. Yes it is to intimidate debtors but I believe it is also to minimise the amount of tax they pay and maximise profit.

 

Cabot is now one of the worst I thnk as they are still using the names of the companies they bought such as dlc etc

[sidley]

Ok, now I'm even more confused!

 

As advised I sent a letter to Cabot, advising them of the contested ownership a few weeks back.

 

Got a letter y/day from Cabot which says " I can assure you that I will be conducting a thorough investigation into your concerns, which may include contacting the original lender to obtain further information and liaising with other departments"

 

Then it goes on a bit about there timescale for resolving complaints, etc.

 

Then it states that "Cabot purchased your account in June 2015" " but we have been receiving payments from Halifax"

 

This is not what the letter/s from Halifax have been saying.

 

 

When I asked who owns this account (in my CCA request)

they own the account, I have to pay them £XXXX by such a date or they may take further action to retrieve the amount owing.

 

 

Which could include assigning it to another company. No mention or hint of it being sold!

 

So who should I be dealing with?

 

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

 

PS Cabot also stated that the account is on hold pending the investigation.

[dx100uk]

Let it run

[sidley]

HI everyone,

 

Just to let you know I will be posting yet another original contract from halifax that arrived in todays post.

 

This now makes 3 original contracts, However, I think this one, although just printed off from a computer, with my name and address at the top - but that is all.

 

Question is in the T&C's of this one under the heading

 

23 . ASSIGNMENT it states 2 clauses.

 

23/1. You (or the authorised user) must not transfer any part of this agreement (or any of your rights under it) to anyone else, unless we agree.

 

 

23/2. We may transfer any amounts which you owe us under this agreement (including interest and charges) to our subsidiary, Halifax Credit Card Limited whose registered office is at Trinity Road, Halifax, West Yorkshireicon, HX1 2RG. If we do, these conditions will still apply.

That's it about assignments on todays original contract.

 

Does that mean they cannot transfer it to anyone else? Like a DCAicon?

 

Of course it goes on to say "we can make any changes to this agreement or its condition at any time we like." - my words not theirs.

But that statement gives them Carte Blanche to rip it up and give you any old agreement.

 

Does anyone know the law on making changes to a CCA?

Some changes are to be expected technology, for example, will change the way in which the agreement works and needs to be amended. So what changes can they make and what can't they change?

 

sidley

 

Also at the weekend went to a Christmas party. Started talking to a solicitor who's the partner for Consumer Credit Law. So, I plied him with drink and we talked for hours. Honestly, I think he was surprised someone was interested in his work.

 

Anyway, re changes to agreements and/or T&Cs; He said clauses fall into 2 categories "Fundamental" and "Incidental". A bank(creditor) can change Incidental clauses unilaterally, but they cannot change Fundamental ones without the agreement of both parties.

 

When I asked him about changes to "assignment" he said that was a fundamental clause and would require my agreement. He went on to say that companies regularly sent out changes to T&Cs but trip up in court because they have not got the debtors agreement in writing.

 

any comments?

 

BTW we didn't just talk about consumer credit law all evening!

 

sidley

[sidley]

Thanks dx,

 

I'll wait and see what happens in the new year.

 

Isn't it illegal for 2 DCAs to be chasing the same account?

 

I haven't heard form Wescot for months now, maybe the're the same company?

 

cheers

 

sidley

[Bazooka Boo]

Isn't it illegal for 2 DCAs to be chasing the same account?

 

Not illegal no.

 

Immoral, deceitful, and against all debt collection guidelines yes.

[SaveTheSheck£es]

Hi Sidley,

I have just won my case against PRA Group who were a DCA an assignee from Halifax.

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?458846-PRA-claimform-old-Halifax-Card-debt-***Claim-Dismissed***

[sidley]

Hi Save,

 

Thanks for the share .

 

I have breezed over your postings ( I will read them more thoroughly, later,).

 

I note that you thought the copies you received from PRA where accurate and compliant except the DN which you won and your case was dismissed.

 

I have a badly photocopied application form with part of it completely illegible!

 

It is the most important part,

as it should have stated that I have read the terms and conditions and agree to be bound by them (which -it says- will be sent to me later????).

How can you sign a form agreeing to the TC's when you don't have them?

 

my daughter is a solicitor dealing mainly with employment contracts,

but her assessment of the courts and judges decisions means that it is a lottery.

 

There is no consistency on what they will or won't accept as evidence.

That is when a deep knowledge of previous rulings are useful but by no means clear cut.

 

If the Judge sticks to his/her guns and will not budge then the only way is an expensive appeal.

 

As they are reluctant to overturn decisions of lower courts, you have to present a compelling argument for them to do so.

 

Well done anyway.

 

Thanks for your interest.

 

Sidley

[sidley]

Have they shot themselves in the foot?

 

Firstly, we would like to thank everyone at CAG for all their selfless help and advice,

I know it can't be easy to deal with people who have never been in this situation before and are madly panicking about it.

 

back to the response from Cabot

after their investigation

they sent my wife a 4 page document;

3 pages of which I've had already.

 

 

I have posted a section "My Investigation" which implies that they, after consulting with Halifax, cannot find the original application form and have sent a reconstituted original application form from when the account numbers changed! Together with the T&C's from the date of the change.

 

Confusing, because we took out a credit card when we were in Yorkshire between 1988 -1991.

Hence the title of this thread.

 

 

When we threatened them for non compliance of numerous CCA requests with the FoS, this is when we finally got this badly photocopied application form dated 1997.

 

 

Neither my wife (who was the main applicant) and myself can ever remember filling one out, especially when on the application form it stated our small towns own branch.

Our small town only has had HSBC(gone), NatWest(also gone) and Barclays(still here).

 

Considering the alleged recon.

application form has been completed by hand (not our hand writing)

together with our signatures (look genuine)

 

 

does this mean they have forged a document?

In Halifax's letter they stated this was the original application form.

 

Has anyone got any ideas?

 

I have attached paragraph titled 'My Investigation' and a redacted copy of one of the pages of the, now alleged, reconstituted new application form. The rest I have already posted.

 

Thanks again

 

sidley

Cabot investigation.pdf

Halifax 3.pdf

[dx100uk]

A CCA request is for the signed agreement

not a signed application form.

 

 

bogroll

 

 

an their investigation is bogroll too

they know full well they are trying to pull the wool by calling it an application

 

 

you aren't pying anyone.

 

 

and nothing to date anyone has ever produced would be enforceable in a court of law I bet.

 

 

they might think that some of the stuff over the history this thread might meet a recon

but that's all it does.

 

 

there are so many many holes and inconsistencies

that even a judge would have a funtime unravelling it all

 

 

dx

[sidley]

Thanks for that dx.

 

I know since both the OC and the DCA are claiming ownership (I have it in writing) and the fact they now state that the original cannot be found so they have reconstituted the application form from when the account numbers changed( can't remember that and why would they change).

 

 

I can only assume it to be a forgery.

 

 

I could expect that type of behaviour from some DCAs but from Halifax?

 

sidley

[dx100uk]

doesn't matter if its poss dodgy, still does meet the requirements

[SaveTheSheck£es]

I went to Court thinking i had good points to contest where the agreement T&C's were concerned,

 

I contested a few points of the said agreement in both my cases,

i said I did not agree the said agreement met the prescribed terms of a legal binding agreement,

i argued this point in both my 2 cases.

 

BOTH Judges ruled .. the reconstituted versions were allowed to stand and were accepted, due to the history and records of the years of payments i had made the Judges both said .. in all possibility an agreement existed in both cases.

 

As you know in the end for me the DN's fell short and won the day for me twice.

 

If i never had the DN's to contest strongly and was going to Court again knowing what I have now learned,

I would be researching in depth the prescribed requirements of a credit agreement.

Also any relevant uptodate law and any similar cases i would be using to direct the Judge

[AndyOrch]

A reconstituted application notice...now theres a new one ...and even worse it has your new address on

[sidley]

@andyorch,

 

Exactly, not only that but it is a hand written reconstruction, with our signatures on.

 

sidley

[AndyOrch]

A hand written reconstruction of an application form with you new address and your signature on it...wonder how that got there ?

[sidley]

@andyorch,

 

It's the dates of the signatures that make me smile.

 

My wifes signature - dated 12/2/19XX

Their date (No signature) 23/2/19XX

My date 15/3/19XX

 

How come my date is after theirs?