HELP speed camera Witness Statement is incorrect

[ohoh]

Hi everyone, my car was caught by a mobile speed camera doing 35 in a 30, here is account audit trail showing time line

 

21.01.16 alleged offence took place

 

26.01.16 nip sent ( i didnt reply )

 

17.02.16 reminder sent

 

23.02.16 letter received requesting photos

 

23.02.16 letter sent with photo images ( doesnt even show an outline of driver as lighting was poor )

 

24.02.16 reminder sent ?????

 

02.03.16 driver info form returned completed ( with my name ) but stating unsure who was driving

 

07/03.16 letter sent to ME advising driver info form not acceptable and matter referred for court process as unsure of driver

 

 

My main issue here apart from photo not showing driver ( i informed them that car was for sale at the time so could have been test driven , car did sell some weeks later )

 

The police officers statement ( which is clearly a template filled in on computer ) has a GLARING OMISSION , and i quote " The images reveal that on 21/01/2016 at 16:34 at INSERT LOCATION, motor vehicle blah blah "

 

So the witness statement is unreliable surely, there's no way they can pull this guy in and he'll remember it, so i have a good case, right ? common sense suggests i do but i know they are a law unto themselves.

Any feedback ?

 

cheers

[renegadeimp]

vehicle was speeding. If you dont identify the driver then theyll go after the registered keeper.

[Bazooka Boo]

A good case for what?

 

I don't see what you;re getting at, sorry.

 

All pc plod has said is that your vehicle was caught exceeding the speed limit on this road at a certain dtm, it is up to you to either fess up and admit being the driver or forward the name of who ever was test driving it at the time.

[Raykay]

So the witness statement is unreliable surely, there's no way they can pull this guy in and he'll remember it, so i have a good case, right ? common sense suggests i do )

 

 

The photograph is used to identify the vehicle, not the driver. That is why the registered keeper is required to identify the driver.

 

 

The operator will have other documents to remind him, which he can refer to in court.

 

07/03.16 letter sent to ME advising driver info form not acceptable and matter referred for court process as unsure of driver

 

If the driver has not been nominated, the court case would be for that offence not the speeding - 6 points and a large fine if convicted.

[renegadeimp]

You should have owned up and admitted it. Punishment would then be just a speeding course, (no points IF this is your first time speeding in 3 years). Dont start playing games, as you are very unlikley to win, the judge will look down on you and likely issue a heavy penalty.

[ohoh]

A good case for what?

 

I don't see what you;re getting at, sorry.

 

All pc plod has said is that your vehicle was caught exceeding the speed limit on this road at a certain dtm, it is up to you to either fess up and admit being the driver or forward the name of who ever was test driving it at the time.

 

Ok guys , sorry i wasnt clear enough, my main issue is the fact that the witness statement doesnt say where the offence took place, the case is 5th september( almost 8 months after the event ), it was a camera van and the witness only had to collect the evidence from the camera and report on it , he didnt fill in the part that says where the offence took place

 

but on his statement he omitted to fill in the blank that says where the offence took place, theres no way a human being could remember that information 8 months later , surely?

[BazzaS]

Ok guys , sorry i wasnt clear enough, my main issue is the fact that the witness statement doesnt say where the offence took place, the case is 5th september( almost 8 months after the event ), it was a camera van and the witness only had to collect the evidence from the camera and report on it , he didnt fill in the part that says where the offence took place

 

Flimsy enough to be a concern that it might not be enough to get you off if you were charged with speeding (it could be frectified by the witness appearing in court), but you aren't charged with speeding, you are charged with failure to identify......

 

but on his statement he omitted to fill in the blank that says where the offence took place, theres no way a human being could remember that information 8 months later , surely?

 

"but surely you can't remember, 8 months down the line" .......

"I think it was Bloggs Street .... excuse me a moment while I just refresh my memory ..... ohh, yes, I was correct, I've just checked my notes / duty roster / pocket book, and it was Bloggs Street, my memory was correct"!

[ohoh]

It was a camera van, officer who gave statement missed out a very important piece of information in my opinion ( the location) how can he remember 8 months down the line

[BazzaS]

It was a camera van, officer who gave statement missed out a very important piece of information in my opinion ( the location) how can he remember 8 months down the line

 

1) he doesn't have to, you aren't charged with speeding, but failure to identify.

2) Even if charged with speeding, see previous answer. Is it enough to introduce "reasonable doubt"? Likely not, when other documents support the recollection of the officer, unless you want to take the chance you or your legal representative can "trip them up" in court?

[Raykay]

It was a camera van, officer who gave statement missed out a very important piece of information in my opinion ( the location) how can he remember 8 months down the line

 

 

The statement is only a document sent to you, the officer will have other documents etc. to refresh his memory (as in post 10). As the correct location would be on other documents you will have received, you would not be at a disadvantage.

[ohoh]

i wasnt going to inform them of the mistake before the court appearance,

 

 

i am indeed accused of both ,

 

 

i did actually fill in the form with my details and sign it,

but wrote on the form that i filled it in to avoid further costs to myself,

so they wouldnt accept it,

 

 

there is also the question over what constitutes 'reasonable diligence' when trying to ascertain who was driving

( i studied the photo evidence and made inquiries to try and find this info but i dont keep records of who drives my car weeks after the event )

 

 

given the circumstances i feel this is reasonable.

 

 

there is a sample case where a senior police officer was found not guilty as he couldnt remember if he or his wife were driving ( i cant remember the case right now )

[dx100uk]

you wouldn't have been the only one to be captured.

even if that was used, there would easily be corroborating evidence on tickets issue before and after you

of where the van was.

 

 

dx

[Raykay]

i wasnt going to inform them of the mistake before the court appearance,

 

 

If the driver has not been identified, the speeding matter will be discontinued.

 

 

The details in the statement will not be relevant, or part of the evidence for the offence of failing to identify the driver, as that occurred later than the speeding - after the time given for their receipt of the identity of the driver form.

[Oddfellow]

I guess it could be argued that if no speeding offence had been committed then the police had no authority to require the keeper to identify the driver. Is that what you are arguing?

 

 

I doubt it will work, mainly because the photographic evidence will be imprinted with date, time, location, speed and index mark.

 

 

Bear in mind that you aren't dealing with a private parking cowboy set-up who'll capitulate when you throw up a POFA non-compliance defence.

 

 

You are obliged under s.172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 to tell them who the driver is, and you will be fined and get points unless you can show that it is impossible to comply "despite your best reasonable and diligent enquiries to establish the driver's identity". The burden of proof is then on YOU to explain why you can't, and the courts would not look favourably on it.

[borisbeaver]

The location of the camera van will be on record.

[ohoh]

I guess it could be argued that if no speeding offence had been committed then the police had no authority to require the keeper to identify the driver. Is that what you are arguing?

 

 

I doubt it will work, mainly because the photographic evidence will be imprinted with date, time, location, speed and index mark.

 

 

Bear in mind that you aren't dealing with a private parking cowboy set-up who'll capitulate when you throw up a POFA non-compliance defence.

 

 

You are obliged under s.172 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 to tell them who the driver is, and you will be fined and get points unless you can show that it is impossible to comply "despite your best reasonable and diligent enquiries to establish the driver's identity". The burden of proof is then on YOU to explain why you can't, and the courts would not look favourably on it.

 

 

i thought they needed a witness as a camera itself cannot be a witness, thats why the police officer gives a statement, if his statement in incorrect or incomplete then it cant be relied apon in court, plus if he cant even fill a box in on a template form then hes incompetent and how can we assume hes done the rest of his job properly, as a side note how do i apply for the camera calibration records?

[BazzaS]

i thought they needed a witness as a camera itself cannot be a witness, thats why the police officer gives a statement, if his statement in incorrect or incomplete then it cant be relied apon in court, plus if he cant even fill a box in on a template form then hes incompetent and how can we assume hes done the rest of his job properly, as a side note how do i apply for the camera calibration records?

 

But if they are prosecuting you for failure to furnish details of the driver, will that even matter?

[Raykay]

i thought they needed a witness as a camera itself cannot be a witness, thats why the police officer gives a statement, if his statement in incorrect or incomplete then it cant be relied apon in court, plus if he cant even fill a box in on a template form then hes incompetent and how can we assume hes done the rest of his job properly, as a side note how do i apply for the camera calibration records?

 

 

A witness statement is not relied on in court, it is served on the defendant as a record of what evidence the witness will give in court, if it is disputed, the witness would attend court to give the evidence in person - which would not have that error.

 

 

The statement and calibration record would all be irrelevant in your case if the charge is failing to notify as the speeding matter would be discontinued.

[renegadeimp]

IMO you need to admit the charge and not look for ways to avoid it. The road youre heading on ( excuse the pun) will just lead to a more severe punishment.

[Oddfellow]

Had you replied to the initial NIP, 35 in a 30 would normally have got you an awareness course (unless you have had an offence in the last 3 years). Take it to court and you'll get points and a fine.