Holiday Flight Delay

[Andrew-P 1]

My family and I travelled back from Orlando to Leeds Bradford last weekend and were delayed as a result of the flight time being changed from Orlando meaning that we could not make a connection at Miami and had to be moved onto a different flight to London Gatwick (we were due to land at Heathrow).

 

This meant that we did not have enough time to make the next flight at Heathrow and ended up getting back into LBA at about 18:00 instead of 13:50 (the plane was a few minutes late) and we also had the added hassle and cost of getting from LGW to LHR with baggage which had to be collected and checked in.

 

Can anyone tell me if I am subject to compensation. For info the details were as follows:

 

• Flights booked through an agent (TravelUP)
  
• Return flight with Iberia but operated by American Airlines
  

 

Although the experience was difficult and stressful I must point out that the American Airlines and British Airways staff in Orlando were excellent and did everything they could to help.

 

Thanks in advance for any help.

[Vauban 348]

You would only be entitled to compensation (under EU Regulation 261/04) if:

 

a) You arrived at your final destination three hours late (or two hours, if you were re-routed); and

b) If a connecting flight was involved, you were on a single ticket booking; and

c) If flying into the EU, you were on an aeroplane operated by a European carrier (from the EU, any airline is liable).

 

Only the first of these seems definitely to apply in your case. Just because you booked through a travel agent doesn't mean you were on a single ticket, which creates problems when you miss connections. But you claim properly fails on the last of these - you were flying back into Europe on a US airline, which means Regulation 261/04 doesn't apply.

[Andrew-P 1]

Thank you for your advice - the connecting flights (and the BA booking out were all a single booking and a single BA ticket reference) but it looks like because most of my return journey was with American I would lose out

[plato1 51]

Andrew-P, 3 questions:

1. did you book just the flights with TravelUP or also accomodation at destination, airport hotels/transit/car rental or other?

2. did you have a single 'booking reference' for the trip or several?

3. did you pay in one payment and what did your invoice say in the description of the service being invoiced?

Depending on the answers, you should abolutely be entitled to the full compensation for delay at final destination.

For the text of the legislation Put:e

ur-lex 32004r0261

into google - it should be the first answer you get. Open the link and scroll down to text.

part of what concerns you is:

© "Community carrier" means an air carrier with a valid operating licence granted by a Member State in accordance with the provisions of Council Regulation (EEC) No 2407/92 of 23 July 1992 on licensing of air carriers(5);

(d) "tour operator" means, with the exception of an air carrier, an organiser within the meaning of Article 2, point 2, of Council Directive 90/314/EEC of 13 June 1990 on package travel, package holidays and package tours(6);

(e) "package" means those services defined in Article 2, point 1, of Directive 90/314/EEC;

(f) "ticket" means a valid document giving entitlement to transport, or something equivalent in paperless form, including electronic form, issued or authorised by the air carrier or its authorised agent;

(g) "reservation" means the fact that the passenger has a ticket, or other proof, which indicates that the reservation has been accepted and registered by the air carrier or tour operator;

(h) "final destination" means the destination on the ticket presented at the check-in counter or, in the case of directly connecting flights, the destination of the last flight; alternative connecting flights available shall not be taken into account if the original planned arrival time is respected;

 

 

My understanding is that you do have the right to the maximum compensation (600eur per passenger) as well as extra costs incurred for transit fm LGW to LHR. The fact that the booking was made through Iberia also puts you in the qualifying category, even if the flight itself was operated by American Airlines.

I am not 100% sure re the agent but think again that this does not disqualify from claiming - the question would only be whether you make the claim with IBERIA or the agent. It is essential though, that you had 'one booking' reference for the whole trip - otherwise the application for delay compensation will be rejected unless your initial delay on the first leg was more than 3 hours. You should still have the right to claim for your lGW to LHR transit though.

Do pursue this. I had a huge mess-up with BA on connecting flights back via the US (also booked on an American Airlines flight on a BA ticket) and they paid up - 1,200 for 2 of us BUT (and it's a big BUT) don't expect them to be helpful or make it easy for your to actually claim and send you the right info/link to the forms.

PM me if you need more info.

Good luck.

[plato1 51]

If you have a single BA ticket reference then it's not relevant that they sub-contracted out to American.

[plato1 51]

I have the url to the form you send to BA to claim for the EU delay compensation but I cannot put it in a message.

 

They make this form almost impossible to find on the website (surprise, surprise).

If you pm me remember I don't have enough posts to pm you back. I can only post on the public forum until I have 20 posts apparently, so if you want the link, please include a reply email.

[Andrew-P 1]

Plato - thank you so much for your help.

 

I can confirm that:

• I just booked flights with TravelUp
  
• I do have a single BA booking reference
  
• I paid in one instalment using credit card
  

 

I hope this means that I am eligable

[plato1 51]

I THINK so, the only slight doubt I have is the agent booking rather than direct with the airline - did the cc payment go to the agent?

What did your 'receipt' say?

I'm 99% sure it doesn't disqualify you but it's essential to be sure before contacting these guys because even when you're absolutely sure of your ground they'll still try to wriggle.

[Andrew-P 1]

The payment went to the agent and, at Orlando, American did claim that they had contacted the agent

[Vauban 348]

My understanding is that you do have the right to the maximum compensation (600eur per passenger) as well as extra costs incurred for transit fm LGW to LHR. The fact that the booking was made through Iberia also puts you in the qualifying category, even if the flight itself was operated by American Airlines.

I am not 100% sure re the agent but think again that this does not disqualify from claiming - the question would only be whether you make the claim with IBERIA or the agent. It is essential though, that you had 'one booking' reference for the whole trip - otherwise the application for delay compensation will be rejected unless your initial delay on the first leg was more than 3 hours. You should still have the right to claim for your lGW to LHR transit though.

 

I am afraid this is simply wrong.

 

It does not matter at all with whom you book the ticket - either directly with BA, another airline or a travel agency. The ONLY people who are liable to pay you compensation is the airline whom you travelled with. The Regulation makes this absolutely clear in preamble 7:

 

"In order to ensure the effective application of this Regulation, the obligations that it creates [ie compensation] should rest with the operating air carrier who performs or intends to perform a flight"

 

As the Regulation does not apply to non-EU airlines flying into the EU, Americans Airlines (as the operating airline) owe you nothing. If you were flying from the UK to the US, then you would be covered - as all airlines (regardless of nationality) leaving the EU are subject to the Regulation.

[plato1 51]

PM me with an email so I can reply with links.

Going out now - will check messages upon return.

[plato1 51]

Vauban he has a BA booking - read my earlier post about reclaiming and getting compensation for delay on BA booking with a leg flown by AA.

[Vauban 348]

It doesn't matter that he has a booking with BA - the obligation to pay compensation rests with American Airlines, and they are not covered by the Regulation. If the OP was originally down to travel on BA (or Iberia for that matter) but was re-routed onto an American Airlines flight, then that would be different. But I don't think that's the case here. The OP was always scheduled to fly on AA and as such the Regulation does not apply for flying into Europe.

 

If the OP wishes to double check whether s/he has a claim, they could try (with no obligation) the online NWNF lawyers website who have a database of eligible flights and tell you straightaway whether you have a claim. EUClaim and Bottonline both have these.

[plato1 51]

it depends on his booking. If the flights were booked with BA, the ticket was a BA ticket and the single booking reference for the trip was a BA reference then the fact that any of the flights were actually flown by other airlines is not relevant.

His contract is with BA.

It's like buying a Dell computer from PC World. If there's a problem, it's PC World who has to compensate you, not Dell.

In this case, if all the above points are true then he has contracted with an EU (for the moment) based airline and qualifies for the compensation.

[Vauban 348]

This is absolutely not true. The Regulation is very clear about this:

 

"operating air carrier" means an air carrier that performs or intends to perform a flight under a contract with a passenger or on behalf of another person, legal or natural, having a contract with that passenger;

 

So if you pay for BA for a ticket, and they put you on a code-share flight, the obligation of compensation under Regulation 261/04 sits with the operating air carrier. It's not "like buying a computer from PC world", because there is a very specific piece of legislation in place that governs the compensation regime.

 

There is nothing to stop you suing BA under another piece of legislation, including basic contract law. But there is no other legislation which gives the passenger a statutory right to compensation in the event of a delay. At least none I am aware of. (The Montreal Convention, which is the other main piece of airline legislation covering liabilities, makes no provision for this at all.)

[honeybee13 3,995]

PM me with an email so I can reply with links.

Going out now - will check messages upon return.

 

We don't encourage advising by PM, plato. There's no reason you can't post de-personalised information on the thread.

 

HB

[plato1 51]

We don't encourage advising by PM, plato. There's no reason you can't post de-personalised information on the thread.

 

HB

No intent to advise without sharing Honeybee. Just impossible to send links on the forum.

[plato1 51]

distressingly Vauban, I've done more digging and at the moment, it does appear that code-sharing by a marketing EU carrier with a non-EU operating carrier absolves said marketing EU carrier from liability on any leg of the journey not operated by them.

 

(ie if you book a multi-trip with BA and a leg of the trip flown by American is delayed, BA is not liable and you are not protected by EU Reg 261/2004)

 

This flies in the face of good faith, reason and the spirit of consumer protection legislation in general as well as being arguably an unfair contract term.

Apologies Andrew for not having know this.

 

In my case the code-share multi-trip I had booked with BA was American Eagle flight connecting to BA flight and it was the BA flight that was delayed - hence my successful claim. It demonstrates a flaw in the drafting in this regulation though: if the American Eagle leg of the journey had made me miss the BA flight we were connecting to, I would have had no right to claim for my delay under EU Reg 261/2004 even though the whole thing was booked with BA.

 

On the plus side, there are 6 years during which you can claim.

There have already been protests by EU consumer groups to this loophole that is being exploited by the airlines to exclude liability that will hopefully, given some time, translate into case law giving the right to claim under 261/2004 for this type of situation.

I am going to investigate further and keep track of developments since I am a regular traveller and need to know. I will post additional information as I find it on this thread.

 

Were you advised specifically at any time before paying your money that by accepting the code-share aspect of your trip (flights operated by non-EU carriers) you were effectively waiving your right to be protected by EU Reg 261/2004?

 

Have look at this from the Consumer Rights Act 2015:

 

Unfair Terms

 

10 A term which has the object or effect of irrevocably binding the consumer to terms with which the consumer has had no real opportunity of becoming acquainted before the conclusion of the contract.

 

19 A term which has the object or effect of allowing the trader to transfer the trader’s rights and obligations under the contract, where this may reduce the guarantees for the consumer, without the consumer’s agreement.

 

72 Application of rules to secondary contracts

 

(1)This section applies if a term of a contract (“the secondary contract”) reduces the rights or remedies or increases the obligations of a person under another contract (“the main contract”).

 

(2)The term is subject to the provisions of this Part that would apply to the term if it were in the main contract.

 

(3)It does not matter for the purposes of this section—

 

(a)whether the parties to the secondary contract are the same as the parties to the main contract, or

 

(b)whether the secondary contract is a consumer contract.

 

Based on this and other legislation, as I said earlier, I believe there will be case law in the not too distant future to confirm the non-validity of current code-share practices which essentially give a get-out-of-jail-free card for EU carriers in relation to EU Reg 261/2004.

[Old Cogger 956]

Travel agents etc only interested in payment commission, when challenged on booking times between one aircraft and another, they ignore your information i.e. a trip I took the return journey meant change planes with 1 hour and ten minutes to spare - fine = NO security takes up to/over 2 hours 90% of the time, luckily I was using special assistance and got ahead of the queues BUT only 15 minutes to spare, that was Beijing airport

[Vauban 348]

Travel agents etc only interested in payment commission, when challenged on booking times between one aircraft and another, they ignore your information i.e. a trip I took the return journey meant change planes with 1 hour and ten minutes to spare - fine = NO security takes up to/over 2 hours 90% of the time, luckily I was using special assistance and got ahead of the queues BUT only 15 minutes to spare, that was Beijing airport

 

If possible I always book direct with the airline - it's so much easier when things don't go to plan (rather than relying on a travel agency to send you details of schedule changes, etc).

 

And when booking with a return to/from Europe with a EU carrier, always make sure that you are not on a non-EU carrier for the return leg (ie into Europe). Travel with BA or Virgin, and get a significant delay, then they are liable for hotel, food and compensation bills. But travel on a non-EU airline - even if booked with an EU carrier under codesharing - and you have no protection at all. Most websites tell you if you are booking a code-share flight, but it is not always obvious. Look carefully!

[Old Cogger 956]

in fact the above trip was via airline direct, but I brought to the attention of travel agents recently because they were quoting for the same flights = hence will be the same problems ABTA are not interested they ignore E-Mails etc in fact non of the so called Regulators/organisation want to know:-

 

 

So folks as per usual this country is the pits, money grabbing thieves:- = SICK!!!

[Andrew-P 1]

Thank you to everyone for your help and advice.

 

Just for clarification the original plan for return was:

 

19:17 - Orlando to Miami (Iberia operated by American)

21:15 - Miami to Heathrow (Iberia operated by American

12:45 - Heathrow to Leeds Bradford (Iberia operated by BA)

 

As the 19:17 was retimed to 19:45 (without us being told) the connection at Miami did not work so what we actually ended up doing was

 

20:15 - Orlando to Gatwick (Operated by BA)

17:40 - Heathrow to Leeds (Operated by BA)

 

I will shortly be making my complaint to the Travel Agent and airline (not sure which one so any advice would be good) but wanted to come here first advice so I am prepared.

 

Once again I have to say that the individual staff at Orlando (American and BA) and on the plane were fantastic.

[Andrew-P 1]

Quick update - I am planning to send the following to the travel agent and would appreciate any thoughts before I send it:

 

FORMAL LETTER OF COMPLAINT – BOOKING REFERENCE XXXXXXXX

 

I am writing following my recent trip with my family from Orlando to Leeds Bradford which was marred by problems on the return journey which could and should have been avoided had you acted appropriately:

 

1. We arrived at Orlando in good time for our booked flight at 19:17 (local time) to check in, online we had been told to report to the airport, only to find that it was not possible to make the connection in Miami to get us to London Heathrow and that something different had to be arranged.

2. Naturally, I asked why we had not been told of this or booked onto another flight (there was a 18:00 flight to Miami with the same airline which would have allowed us to make the connection)

3. Airline staff claimed that they had informed you as the travel agent and it was your responsibility to inform me and make alternative arrangements.

4. The check-in staff, who were very helpful and did everything they could, said the only alternative was to travel with British Airways on a flight to Gatwick and then make our own way to Heathrow

5. We had no option but to accept this and noted that we only had 3 hours to get from Gatwick to Heathrow including collecting checked baggage and then checking in again at Heathrow. I am sure that you are aware that this is not enough time to comfortably make this connection so we had to rebook on a later flight

6. The seats allocated on the plane to Gatwick were not together as this was not possible so my family was split with only two of the four of us being able to sit together and even this was across an aisle

7. We were responsible for making our own arrangements for travel from Gatwick to Heathrow, we did this by train and tube which is quite straightforward for an experienced traveller such as myself but would have been a nightmare for many people

8. We arrived home several hours later than we should having incurred stress and expenses which we should not have

 

For reference the travel times were supposed to be follows:

• 19:17 - Orlando to Miami (Iberia operated by American)

• 21:15 - Miami to Heathrow (Iberia operated by American

• 12:45 - Heathrow to Leeds Bradford (Iberia operated by BA)

 

As the 19:17 was retimed to 19:45 (without us being told) the connection at Miami did not work so what we actually ended up doing was:

• 20:15 - Orlando to Gatwick (Operated by BA)

• 17:40 - Heathrow to Leeds (Operated by BA)

 

The key questions I wish to have answered are as follows:

1. Why were we not informed that the flight time had been changed and our connection at Miami was no longer possible?

2. Why were we not booked on an earlier flight, e.g. the 18:00, which would have allowed us to make the other two flights on our journey?

3. What steps you plan to take to resolve this situation?

 

This was an unfortunate and entirely preventable end to an otherwise great holiday.

 

I look forward to hearing from you.

 

Kindest regards,

 

A n d r e w P o r t e r

 

I also plan to send a similar letter to the airline but was wondering if this should be Iberia or American

[Andrew-P 1]

Well I sent the letter and was fobbed off with a comment that I needed to re-confirm my flights 72 hours before departure and sure enough this is in the small print.

 

Does anyone have any thoughts as to what, if anything, I can do next?

[Old Cogger 956]

unfortunately reconfirmation is required by most airlines 72 hours and is written into contract! cannot see an outcome of that part! and a lot of airlines allow you to reconfirm on line thru their site and issue seat tickets there and then! there is nothing new in the 72 hour reconfirmation area been around for decades.

 

some airlines are not requesting reconfirmation these days but very few!