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    • Claiming For A Breach Of Contract Where You Are Not A Direct Contracting Partner The contract is private to the contracting parties – “Privity” The general rule is that only the direct parties to a contract are allowed to claim if there is a breach. This is a very old rule and it is called “privity of contract” which means that a contract is private to the contracting partners. “Privity”can cause injustice This has caused some difficulties and even some injustice where a third party expecting to benefit from the contract might be expecting to receive something, if one of the parties to the main contract doesn’t fulfil their side of the bargain, you, the third party beneficiary can’t do anything about it - and the contracting party who did keep their promise is the only person who can sue and maybe they simply don’t want to. This could be even more unjust if you are the third party who funded the entire arrangement between the parcel broker and the delivery agent. The parcel was lost. Both the parcel broker and the delivery agent are not out of pocket – only you are out of pocket– but under the “Privity of Contract” rule you are not allowed to make a claim against the delivery company which lost or damaged your parcel. The Law Commission Report on Privity Of Contract And Third Party Rights In 1996 there was a report from the Law commission which recommended that in some circumstances third parties should be able to sue under contract even though they were part of the contract. In particular, the Law commission highlighted this injustice:   [The Person Who Has Suffered the Loss Cannot Sue, While the Person Who Has Suffered No Loss Can Sue]: In a standard situation, the third-party [privity] rule produces the perverse, and unjust, result that the person who has suffered the loss … cannot sue, while the person who has suffered no loss can sue.   As a result, Parliament passed a law called the Contracts (Rights of Third Parties) Act 1999 This gives a third party in some circumstances the right to sue for a breach of contract even though they were not a direct contracting party. As a third party, are replacing one of the main parties When the third party uses this third party right, then they have to sue as if they were one of the direct parties to the contract and this means that they are bound by the same terms and conditions of that contract. This means that if it was a consumer contract then they can sue as the consumer with consumer rights. If it was a commercial contract, for instance between a broker and a delivery company, then you have to rely on your commercial rights. Most parcel delivery brokers are in the UK so you can sue the broker directly and this is always the best thing to do. However, there are one or two which are not in the UK. They are outside the jurisdiction of the UK courts and so if you arrange your parcel delivery through a one of those brokers and if your parcel is lost or damaged and if they refuse to reimburse you, suing the broker can be a difficult business and probably impossible. The only thing you can do is to sue the delivery company which lost the parcel but as you didn’t contract directly with them, you will have to rely on your “third party rights”. What the delivery company will say If the delivery company tries to defend the claim, they will probably say that although they did lose the parcel, you don’t have a right to sue them. They will say that you must sue the parcel broker because you made your contract directly with them – but of course we know that that is impossible because your parcel broker isn’t in the UK. You will have to state in your claim form and also explain to the judge that you are entitled under the 1999 Act because it was clear to the broker and to the delivery company that the delivery contract was made specifically for your benefit as the sender of the parcel and also for the benefit of the addressee – who is also a third party – and that it was even you who paid for the delivery anyway. What rights will you use? In a contract where you organised with Packlink, for example, to send a parcel using Evri, Packlink are based in Spain, you would have to sue Evri using the same commercial rights as enjoyed by Packlink. So in a commercial contract instead of relying on the Consumer Rights Act 2015, you would rely on the Supply of Goods and Services Act 1982 which also requires that a company selling a service must exercise reasonable care and skill and if they don’t then they are in breach. Also, in a commercial contract you would rely on the unfair terms provisions in the Unfair Contract Terms Act 1977 and which includes as an unfair term any attempt to restrict or limit liability without any good reason. If you are using your third party rights to sue on a consumer contract then you would be able to rely on the Consumer Rights Act 2015. Making a small claim as a third party is pretty straightforward The the process for bring a small claim as an entitled third-party is the same as any other small claim and pretty straightforward. The arguments are slightly different – but that’s all Some examples of people who might be excluded by the “Privity” rule but are saved by their third party rights ·        Your friend takes you on holiday. They organise it and pay for it. Your friend’s holiday is great but your room is damp and rat infested. Your friend doesn’t want to claim against the holiday company. You took time off work for this holiday which you won’t get back but you didn’t have a contract with the holiday company. You would sue the holiday company as third party consumer and rely on your consumer rights.   ·        Your friend uses a parcel broker based abroad to send you a mobile phone with £500. And the parcel arrives, it contains shoes. Your friend has moved to Australia permanently. You don’t have a contract with the parcel broker so you would sue them as a third party to a consumer contract and rely on your consumer rights   ·        You get taken out for an expensive meal. Your host the table and pays for the meal but you get food poisoning. Your host had a great time and hasn’t actually lost anything. They have no loss to claim but you don’t have a contract with the restaurant. You would sue as a third party to a consumer contract and rely on your consumer rights.   ·        You sell a mobile telephone on eBay and send it to your purchaser using an overseas parcel broker to organise the delivery through a UK delivery company. When the parcel arrives the purchaser finds that it contains some books. You sue the parcel delivery company as a third party to a commercial contract and rely on your commercial rights  
    • new subheading under paragraph 25 – The defendant is fully aware of third party beneficiaries new paragraph 26 Any denial by the defendant that they are unaware of the existence of third party beneficiaries to their contract with Packlink would be quite untrue. The defendant routinely sends out notifications to parcel recipients informing them the parcel which they are carrying on behalf of the broker is about to be delivered. Please find examples at – bundle X X X, X X X 26. 1) In the absence of any explanation the defendant’s denial should be disregarded.  but in any event,   If you have a look at the pinned thread at the top of this sub- forum relating to third-party rights, you will find several examples of notifications which have been sent by EVRi to the recipients of parcels warning them that their parcel which is being carried on behalf of QVC, Packlink – et cetera is due to be delivered. I suggest that you use a couple of these as examples of how EVRi is completely aware that there are third-party beneficiaries involved. If EVRi tried to say – "yes, we knew that there was a recipient that we had no idea that there was a sender…" Well, could they really be that stupid? I suggest you incorporate that, make the tweaks which have been suggested by @jk2054 and that's it. That would probably be the final version. You've worked hard on it – but hopefully the constant repetition will mean that you are absolutely fluent if it actually goes to court. EVRi are watching this of course and I don't really expect they are looking forward to having a judgement on this against them so I can imagine that they might reach out to you before the trial and make an offer. Have you paid the hearing fee yet? I don't think you have. I can imagine that they are waiting to see if you pay the hearing fee so they know that you are serious. Of course is not guaranteed but I would expect that they will try to prevent this going to trial. You should hold out for every penny. And if they want to make an offer to you under conditions of confidentiality then you should refuse. Confidentiality is not part of the claim. That something extra. If they try to impose a condition of confidentiality then you should tell them that this would cost them extra. I would say thousand pounds is probably cheap for the trouble that a judgement against them will cause them. Keep us updated of any approaches by EVRi – either on the forum – or by email if you prefer to admin email address. Let's see your final version
    • Hello I’m also going through the same at the moment for £300. Icon went quiet for a month or so but just received another text this morning to say “Notice of likely CCJ/Enforcement due to non-payment”. I’m still ignoring as per all of the threads on this but every time I get a text I still like to have a read up just to check advice hasn’t changed so good to read this thread! Thanks
    • They have now closed the account.
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      The judge's reasoning is very useful and will certainly be helpful in any other cases relating to third-party rights where the customer has contracted with the courier company by using a broker.
      This is generally speaking the problem with using PackLink who are domiciled in Spain and very conveniently out of reach of the British justice system.

      Frankly I don't think that is any accident.

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PRA Claimform - Halifax credit card debt ***Claim Dismissed***


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Hi all,

 

I recently CCAed all my creditors in order to try and sort out my finances finally.

I have been paying £1 token payments to each, having defaulted on all over 6 years ago.

I have moved house a few times since and have lost track of what has happened to them all.

 

having sent a CCA request to Robinson Way, who I originally dealt with for a Halifax debt,

I received a strange reply, returning my £1 PO, and saying that

 

"the account is closed on our files, please contact our principal".

 

This was written on a very unprofessional piece of paper that looked more like a memo than a letter!

 

Has anyone got any advise as to how I should proceed with this?

 

The 12+2 days are definitely over.

 

As Robinson Way were dealing with this,

 

is it still their responsibility to respond to my CCA request?

 

Thanks

AM

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Hi

I would suggest that as soon as they got the CCA request, they shipped the account back to the original creditor as they knew they wouldn't be able to enforce.

 

Whilst you are here, have you though about charges reclaims (dependant on the debt)

If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

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stop paying

check your credit file

but like the other one

it prob wont show.

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 5 months later...

Hi all,

 

A few months back I wrote on here to get some advice about some old debts that I was paying £1 a month to (defaults back in 2009/2010).

 

 

After receiving some advice from some of you obviously more knowledgeable people than myself,

I CCA'd them all and either received nothing back, or was sent back my £1 PO.

Payments have therefore since been stopped - thanks for the advice!

 

I haven't heard anything as yet from all bar one; Robinson Way.

This was for an old Halifax credit card with £3kish on it.

 

 

When I sent them the CCA request months ago,

they wrote back saying that there was "no record of my file so please refer to our principle", with the £1 PO sent back.

 

 

After I stopped my payments, they started writing saying that my payments have stopped,

to which I replied "Yes, because you haven't sent me the CCA I requested",

to which they responded and said

"We never received this request",

to which I responded

"Yes you did, here is the proof" (sending a photocopy of their initial response to the CCA request).

 

 

They then wrote back saying something to the tune of

"Sorry, there has been some confusion, there is a record of your account. If you still wish your CCA please request it again,

however we will waive the £1 fee".

 

 

I ignored this as it seemed a little off;

how can they "waive" a statutory fee?!

Another reason I ignored it was because I had already requested this, so didn't see why I should have to do it again.

 

having ignored the latter correspondence from Robinson Way,

I then started receiving letters from Moorcroft.

 

 

The first was addressed to me but said

"We have this address recorded as yours, please confirm.

If you are not the correct person that this letter is addressed to, please also confirm".

I ignored this as it seemed like they were fishing for information!

 

 

They must have decided that I was in fact the person they were after because the next letters have been asking for money

"or potential further debt collection activity could take place",

specifically using the phrase "our client" when referring to Halifax.

 

 

They have also mentioned that they could potentially offer "a substantial discount to the original debt".

 

Sorry for the narrative, but I thought I'd give some background to this!

 

 

So, my questions are:

 

As they are referring to Halifax as "their client", would this suggest that the debt is still with Halifax and the DCAs have just been working on their behalf?

 

 

If so, it seems strange that all of a sudden, when I rock the boat,

Robinson Way jump ship (excuse the pun), and Moorcroft come creeping out of the wood-work;

this would suggest that it HAD indeed been sold on (??).

 

Secondly, does the fact that they've mentioned "a substantial discount" hint at a desperate attempt to get at least some money?

 

Thanks again for all your help!

AM

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Hi AM,

 

In answer to your questions both are yes.

 

The word Client means that either the DCA is collecting on behalf of the Original Creditor so you can ignore the threats of this and that because as they do not own the debt they cannot go to Court so continue to ignore.

 

You need to check your credit file, Noddle and Clearscore are free, if the debt is still listed it will show the owner, however because you have not received a Notice of Assignment then unless otherwise proven the debt still belongs to the OC.

 

Discounts always mean that the account has a colourful collection past and because of these issues like unable to get hold of a valid CCA the DCA will just try to cut and run by offering a substantial discount.

As the account is not with Moorcroft you can safely say the Moorcroft are acting alone in this and any discount will not come off of the final amount, a typical DCA trick.

 

I would not personally play letter tennis with any DCA no more.

 

So continue as you have been before which is enjoying life, none of your hard earned cash goes to any DCA's, ignore everything except Court paperwork, if this is ever received please come back here immediately where we will all advise.

 

Stigman

NEVER telephone a DCA

If a DCA rings you, refuse to go through the security questions & hang up!

 

If I have helped you, click on the star & say thank you

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Thanks Stigman,

 

Your advice is much appreciated.

 

The word Client means that either the DCA is collecting on behalf of the Original Creditor so you can ignore the threats of this and that because as they do not own the debt they cannot go to Court so continue to ignore.

 

If this is the case, won't Moorcroft just go back to Halifax and say that I've not been playing ball, causing Halifax to induce the court process? I think the credit card was from 2008 so if I'm not mistaken, they don't need a valid CCA to take me to court anyway (??).

 

You need to check your credit file, Noddle and Clearscore are free, if the debt is still listed it will show the owner, however because you have not received a Notice of Assignment then unless otherwise proven the debt still belongs to the OC.

 

I have an Equifax account and it looks like Halifax still own this debt.

 

Discounts always mean that the account has a colourful collection past and because of these issues like unable to get hold of a valid CCA the DCA will just try to cut and run by offering a substantial discount.

As the account is not with Moorcroft you can safely say the Moorcroft are acting alone in this and any discount will not come off of the final amount, a typical DCA trick.

 

I was unaware of such a trick! Thanks for letting me know about this!

 

Thanks

AM

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old and new threads merged for history..

 

Halifax wont do court.

 

they'll flog it on

but I'm surprised you don't or haven't had letters from them

about payments stopping

its almost like they wee never getting you payments anyway..that wont be a first!

 

might it be an idea to SAR Halifax?

the statement might be interesting ??

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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oh yes called cash cowing

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Rule #1. NEVER trust a DCA.

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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Doubt it

But an sar might be worthy?

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 2 weeks later...
Doubt it

But an SAR might be worthy?

Yes, this might be worth doing to get the history of the account.

 

Would be interested to hear some opinions on the two attached letters that I received a few days ago, both on the same day.

 

I am particularly confused about the one that has the Halifax letterhead;

this letter has the Moorcroft address in the top right.

What's more, under the account reference number, it says

"Creditor: Bank of Scotland PLC...........".

 

Not sure if I am reading into this too much,

but to me, it seems like Moorcroft have simply sent me a letter with the Halifax letterhead to make it look like it has come from Halifax?

 

Why would Halifax write to me with Moorcroft's address,

telling me that they are my creditor??

 

Also seems strange as both the letters arrived in separate envelopes on the same day.

 

The tone of the letters is also very stange......not very demanding.

 

 

Again, I could be reading into this too much!

 

 

Any advice much appreciated.

 

Thanks

AM

15 08 2016 13 19 Office Lens.jpg

15 08 2016 13 18 Office Lens.jpg

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nothing funny about them at all

 

 

they are std DCA threat-o-gram mill letters

enticement to pay

enticement to start letter tennis.

 

 

Moorcroft are acting on behalf of 'their client' HBOS [Halifax & Bank Of Scotland]

thus they are allowed to and should use/include their clients details.

 

 

it like you representing say an elderly relative.

 

 

bottom line is

your ignore them

they can do stuff all..

puppet on a string.

 

 

dx

 

 

and

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 4 months later...

Hi,

 

It's been a while since my last post on here as activity has been relatively minimal.....

...the letters from Moorcroft stopped, after it seemed they were almost "begging" for me to give them money with continual offers of discounts etc. Anyway, like I said, they stopped.

 

Yesterday I received a letter from Halifax themselves stating that as they had not been able to reach a suitable arrangement with me, they have now transferred the account to Wescot to manage.

 

 

Would the advice from everyone here remain the same, i.e. ignore everything?

 

Thanks again

AM

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I would say yes. You sent the CCA request to RW, they didn't supply and as such the account is still in dispute. This doesn't stop them from sending begging letters of course.

 

Are you able to remember when the last payment was?

If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

Please help CAG. Order this ebook. Now available on Amazon. Please click HERE

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Hi Silverfox. Yes, unfortunately the last payments made were only 1 year ago (about the time I joined CAG), so not statute barred;

 

 

I stopped paying after following the CCA procedure and not receiving anything of value back from anyone.

 

 

o date (fingers crossed) it is only Halifax who have continued to pursue since I stopped making the payments.

 

 

, that's not to say that the others won't come crawling out of the woodwork at some point!

 

I feel annoyed with myself as I should've started this process ages ago.

 

 

The debts were from so long ago that my current credit rating is now excellent with Equifax and Experian. In fact, my Experian rating is 999/999!!!

 

AM

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again wetcloths don't buy debts they only chase them for clients and take a cut of anything they get.

 

 

IMHO very safe to ignore them.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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OK Dx, thanks,

 

When you say "safe"........in which situation would you advise that I am not safe.......would this be if the debt is sold on? For some reason, I was under the impression (possibly erroneously) that I would be "safer" if the debt was no longer with the OC?

 

Thanks

AM

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NO CCA

doesn't matter who has it

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I stopped paying after following the CCA procedure and not receiving anything of value back from anyone.

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 1 year later...

Further developments to this......I received a letter from PRA Group saying that they have purchased the outstanding balance from Halifax. After sending a couple of "discount offer" letters, they have now sent the pre-litigation letter.

 

Am I right in thinking that I should download the PAP forms from CAG and fire them off to PRA, as per

 

https://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?481827-The-Pre-Action-Protocol-for-Debt-Claims-is-made-by-the-Master-of-the-Rolls-as-Head-of-Civil-Justice.-1st-Oct-2017(1-Viewing)-nbsp

 

Thanks

AM

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Theyre calling your bluff

Any advice i give is my own and is based solely on personal experience. If in any doubt about a situation , please contact a certified legal representative or debt counsellor..

 

 

If my advice helps you, click the star icon at the bottom of my post and feel free to say thanks

:D

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