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VCS ANPR PCN - No Stopping - bwlegal - International Business Park Liverpool


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Hi,

 

I was issued a Final Notice from bwlegal 18th July for an alleged contravention on 28/03/2016

 

I sent a hand written letter in April which I have annoyingly misplaced the copy of along with the original PCN letter from VCS.

 

I have had another letter from VCS stating it was too late to appeal and then a letter to notify it had been passed to their legal team, bwlegal.

 

This was with the first letter from bwlegal that they have been instructed by their client of a balance due etc.

 

Then the Final Notice letter.

 

I have read a few threads on the forum from people who were issued a similar PCN by the same company and the template letter used.

 

I have used that template and was going to send the below response to bwlegal but was just after some additional opinions or advice if this seems an OK way to proceed.

 

28th July 2016

 

Dear Sirs

Your xxxxx

 

I refer to your “Final Notice” letter dated 18th July 2016.

Firstly, I have no intention of paying the money demanded by your client and any court proceedings will be vigorously defended.

 

Second, I wrote a letter in April to your client clearly explaining the mitigating circumstances why I had pulled over which was to tend to my 2 year old daughter who was being sick. I was stationary for less than 10 minutes and did not switch off the engine!

 

Third, should it be your clients intention to start court proceedings, they must provide a Letter Before Claim which complies with the requirements of Annex A Paragraph 2 of the Practice Direction on Pre-action conduct.

 

Please note that a failure and/or refusal to comply with the Practice Direction will result in a complaint being made to the court and an application for a stay of action and costs pursuant to the provisions of paragraph 4 of the Practice Direction on non-compliance and sanctions.

 

In the meantime, you should note that this charge is disputed and you must now refer this matter back to your client and cease and desist all contact with me. Failure to do so will result in a complaint to the Credit Services Association.

 

I trust I have made myself clear.

 

Yours faithfully

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

Thanks,

 

B

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1000's have got this letter

 

 

send them the simple one liner available on many VCS/EXCEL BW threads here

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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I wouldnt bother explaining the whys and wherefores, mitigation is admission and that will cost you.

Also you appear to be inviting them to sue you, this may be something you would like to see happen as you think that they will lose but the wording you have used will make them think that they are onto a winner.

 

 

You have no protection under the POFA because you have already admitted you were driving and that by your previous correspondence there is a case to answer.

 

The short response is that no contract was formed between your client and myself so it is impossible to claim a breach of one.

Please refrain from futher correspondence or it will be treated as harassment.

 

Reason why this will be more pertinent is that VCS dont have the right to claim as the signage on the roadways there are prohibitive and not contractual but trespass. They dont own the land so cant sue for trespass.

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Out of curiosity can VCS use the photographs taken by their mobile camera to prove who was driving as their first letter showed the 2 photographs with a short time difference to show that I had stopped in a no stopping zone?

Not sure how that proves 100% that I had stopped when I was still behind the wheel on both photographs mind you.

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Hi

Not exactly sure how their mobile system works but I will bet they take a sequence of pictures to show that a car is stationary.

 

Have you actually admitted you were the driver?

 

BW Legal do go to court on occasion but as Ericbrother has already pointed out, this is trespass, not contractual.

 

On the entry to the restricted area are signs saying 'No Stopping' but don't go into detail of what would happen if you did. You cannot approach these signs to see what the charge would be without stopping nor can you read the small signs to find out the consequences without stopping to read them.

 

Does anyone else think 'entrapment'?

If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

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Hi

 

I did not outright admit I was the driver only the reason we had stopped and that the PCN was contested. This was to VCS though and no response received.

 

I have just attached a pdf containing pics of the signage and the dead end area where I was photographed by VCS.

 

Thanks

 

B

Doc1.pdf

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And how are they supposed to show who the person behind the wheel is?

They might say that it is a bloke/woman so therefore obviously MR or Mrs X but that is as far as it goes.

 

 

My daughters can drive my car and i can drive my wifes and she can drive our daughters

so even knoing it was a woman named X only narrows it down to 3 people and they ahve but one chance to get it right.

So, not really a starter for them as it is way too expensive to get wrong.

 

Out of curiosity can VCS use the photographs taken by their mobile camera to prove who was driving as their first letter showed the 2 photographs with a short time difference to show that I had stopped in a no stopping zone?

Not sure how that proves 100% that I had stopped when I was still behind the wheel on both photographs mind you.

 

the signage is murdering the english landguage and law so usual VCS rubbish.

 

 

It wont win them a court claim and they know it.

Cant even tell the difference betweena contractual obligation and a breach of contract.

 

A short reply to BW stating that there is no keeper liability as the protocols of the POFA havent been followed to create one and that there is no contract offered by their signage so cannot be a breach of one.

 

Leave it as that and they will probably go quiet.

 

 

If they are daft enough to want to lose in court

you have a paper trail that shows you did your best to prevent costs being accrued and they are unreasonable in their actions.

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The second sign is very misleading. It states NO STOPPING yet goes on to say 'BY PARKING etc. which is it?

 

The first sign also fails to mention the discount period so technically they could claim the full amount within 24 hours with no discount (not that you will be paying)

 

Muppets!

If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi,

 

I received a "Letter Of Claim" dated 16th August from bwlegal.

 

No reference of the letter I sent to them stating " There is no keeper liability as the protocols of the POFA haven't been followed to create one etc" as suggested

 

Their letter states that they are yet to receive payment and/or a response to their letter.

 

So they want the balance paying by 2nd September to prevent legal action being taken. £100 parking charge and £54 for VCS' legal fees.

 

They then go on to use the case of ParkingEye Limited v Beavis 2015 UKSC 67 to suggest that this case eliminates the main defence that you may have should the matter go to court.

 

Mentioned if claim has gone unsuccessfully through an IAS then County Court would likely come to the same conclusion. Then finally they use the CCJ scare tactic.

 

Would you suggest as in the Help-bw-legal-letter-of-claim-Oct-2015-Excel-PCN thread I send another letter to bwlegal with the one line response?

 

"it is denied that any monies are owed to your client relating to the supposed event of 28 March 2016 as no keeper liability has been created and in any case no contract entered into by the driver at the time. Please refer this back to your client".

 

Thanks very much,

 

B

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wont make any odds

 

 

you are watching all the threads

so you know what might happen.

 

 

claimform probably

 

 

should be easy to deal with.

 

 

dx

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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The Beavis case, in my opinion, related to a single car park where Parking Eye paid the landowner £1K per week to manage the land and keep all revenue generated by issuing parking charges.

 

I have yet to see where VCS are claiming on the same grounds. They spout out the case all the time and state that a judge would probably come to the same conclusion. This is misleading as a judge will base any decision on the facts of this one case and although they will use the Beavis case for reference, the differences between the two may lead him/her to think differently to BWL.

 

Anything prohibitive cannot become contractual and their stating that No Stopping plus the misleading signs would be enough for a reasonable judge to see them off (again, in my opinion)

 

How's this for a scenario.

A driver is driving at a crawl to be able to read the roadside signs but stalls the vehicle which then floods the engine. As soon as that vehicle has stopped, that's it.

VCS would not take that as mitigating circumstances and neither would the IAS. The same would apply in a breakdown. It's all about the money. Nothing more.

If you are asked to deal with any matter via private message, PLEASE report it.

Everything I say is opinion only. If you are unsure on any comment made, you should see a qualified solicitor

Please help CAG. Order this ebook. Now available on Amazon. Please click HERE

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there is no reason for the £54 legal fees, it is more likely that it is Champerty than a genuine expense even if it was claimable and it isnt.

I would love to see them sue someone for just that and then we would have the opportunity to look at their accounts in detail as they would have to show they paid it rather than it being an invented amount that Gladdys may get if they dont get their collar felt for fraud.

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  • 4 weeks later...

Hi,

 

Received a County Court claim form today with 14 days to reply of the date of service.

 

After going this far with it I want to proceed with the "disagree with the claim" option.

 

I was just looking for a bit of guidance on the best way/ wording for filling in the Defence please.

 

Thanks,

 

B

 

Sorry forgot to add that I am out of the country for 9 nights from Sunday and the letter is dated 21st September so I assume I would need to respond tomorrow wouldn't I?

 

Thanks

 

B

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please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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Name of the Claimant - Vehicle Control Services Limited

Date of issue – 21 SEP 2016

 

Date to acknowledge) = 09 OCT 2016

 

 

date to submit defence = by 4pm 21 OCT 2016

 

What is the claim for – the reason they have issued the claim?

1.The Claimant's Claim a sum of £100.00 being monies due from the Defendant to the Claimant in respect of a Parking Charge Notice (PCN) issued on 28/03/2016 (Issue Date) at 15:23:55 at International Business Park Liverpool Peel L and Property Ltd.

The PCN relates to Honda under registration xxxxxxx.

 

2.The terms of the PCN allowed the Defendant 28 days from the Issue Date to pay the PCN, but the defendant failed to do so.

Despite demand having being made, the Defendant has failed to settle their outstanding liability.

 

3.The Claim also includes Statutory Interest pursuant to section 69 of the County Courts Act 1984 at a rate of 8% per annum a daily rate of 0.02 from 28/03/2016 to 20/09/2016 being an amount of £3.54.

 

4.The Claimant also claims £54.00 contractual costs pursuant to PCN Terms and Conditions.

 

What is the value of the claim - £232.54 (Amount claimed £157.54, Court fee £25.00, Legal representative's costs £50.00)

 

Has the claim been issued by the original creditor

or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim ?

- VCS but Signed by BW Legal Services Limited (Claimant's Legal Representative)

 

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? Yes

Hopefully done that correct.

 

Thank you again for the assistance.

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thank you NOTE CORRECT DEFENCE FILING DATE PLEASE

 

 

pop up on the MCOL website

ACK [AOS BOX] the claim after registering.

defend all

leave jurisdiction unticked.

 

 

get the below cpr31:14 running to BW

 

 

 

 

[Your address]

.

[Their address]

.

[Date]

.

Dear Sir or Madam,

.

Re: (Claimant's name) v (Your name) Case No:

.

CPR 31.14 Request

.

On (date) I received the Claim Form in this case issued by you out of the (Name) county court.

.

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest and counter claim all of your claim.

.

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

.

1. proof of assignment from the landlord to create contracts and make claims in your own name.

.

2.proof of planning permission granted for signage etc under the Town and Country Planning Act 2007

.

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are disclosed at your earliest convenience..

.

Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy.

.

Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

.

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

.

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

.

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request please confirm in your response.

.

Yours faithfully

.

TYPE YOUR NAME DO NOT SIGN IT

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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  • 3 weeks later...

Hi

I went on to the MCOL website did the ACK (AOS) and sent the letter suggested in the posts above to BW legal on 24 Sep before my holiday,

 

I'm yet to receive any response from them and just wondering how long i should give them to respond before moving forward with the defence form,

 

I know i have until 21 Oct to submit

but I'm away with work that week for a few days

so want to ensure I have the defence form ready before then if I can.

 

I'm not sure how best to approach the defence claim from the letter I sent BW back in August when I stated that there is no keeper liability as the protocols of the POFA haven't been followed to create one and that there is no contract offered by their signage so cannot be a breach of one,

 

they did belatedly respond stating that the vehicle stopped on a roadway where stopping was prohibited and by stopping in a prohibited area the vehicle has contravened the prohibition They also confirmed that their client does not rely upon the POFA.

 

Thanks

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Well a couple of things spring to mind here, which Ericsbrother and the like will doubtless tell you in more legally correct jargon:-

 

1. Whether they rely on PoFA or not is moot, as it will be the court who decides whether they can make the assumption that the keeper is the driver or not. Generally not, if precedent is anything to go by, and

 

2. Since they are presumably suing you for breach of contract (as they cannot sue you for trespass since they are not the landowner), what part of contract law do they not understand: you are not able to enter into a contract if you are doing something that they state is prohibited.

 

Bear in mind that these are the ramblings of an interested amateur, not someone who is legally qualified.

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Hi,

 

Thank you for your response.

 

The letter from bwlegal arrived today.

 

Dated 6 October 2016

 

Our client: Vehicle Control Services Limited

Account Number: xxxxxxxxxxx

Balance: £232.54

 

We write in reference to the above matter and your correspondence dated 24 September 2016.

 

It is our client's position that it is the lawful occupier of the Car Park (Was not a car park though) and enforces and manages the Car Park terms in a reasonable manner as per its contractual agreement with the Landowner.

Furthermore, our clients authority was detailed in the signage as displayed at the site in question.

 

The contract between the Landowner and our client is legally privileged document and we will not be disclosing the document to you unless ordered to do so by the Court.

 

In response to your point raised regarding Planning Permission, please note that in terms of the lease with the Landowner, contains a definition of our clients rights in regards to the signage located within the Car Park. Any accusations that are(sic) client is in breach of any planning regulations are refuted.

 

We trust the above is satisfactory.

 

Yours faithfully

 

BW legal

 

 

I do like the way they keep referring to it as a car park.

 

Once again I appreciate any response/ suggestions.

 

Thanks,

 

B

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Willy waving

 

File on time

please don't hit Quote...just type we know what we said earlier..

DCA's view debtors as suckers, marks and mugs

NO DCA has ANY legal powers whatsoever on ANY debt no matter what it's Type

and they

are NOT and can NEVER  be BAILIFFS. even if a debt has been to court..

If everyone stopped blindly paying DCA's Tomorrow, their industry would collapse overnight... 

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