VCS ANPR PCN - No Stopping - bwlegal - International Business Park Liverpool

[ericsbrother]

they are trying to tell you that they arent going to let you know that they dont have any authority and rely on the defendant not knowing this to get tehm to just pay up rather than fight.

 

 

They lose the fights..

[Barno12]

Hi

 

I am just after a bit of clarification on what I should submit for my defence please.

 

Should I just copy section 2 from http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk...-Viewing)-nbsp minus point 2 and fill in the blanks, also changing the use of car park to private land or does that not really matter?

 

I am also not clear on which paragraphs of the POFA have not been complied with and I annoyingly misplaced the original NTK letter so would you suggest I also omit that section from the defence?

 

Thanks very much

 

B

[dx100uk]

link not working

 

simply use a defence

your poc is the same as anyone else that has had a vcs/bw claim form

 

KISS

 

keep it simple stupid.....

 

you atleast must relate to the failure to respond to your CPR

ref land ownership, signs etc etc

[Barno12]

Great, thank you.

[Barno12]

Hi,

Just wanted to update to say I have a confirmation date for a small claims court hearing in Liverpool on March 15th.

 

I said no to mediation and submitted the below defence.

 

1. It is admitted that the Defendant is the owner of vehicle *****.

 

2. It is denied that there is the ability to enter into a contract with the Claimant as the signs which are in place refer to no stopping which it is denied creates a contract for the Defendant to enter into and rather this is a prohibitive notice.

 

3. If there was a contract it is denied that the Claimant has the ability to enter into a contract with the Defendant.

 

 

As held by the Upper Tax Tribunal in Vehicle Control Services Limited v HMRC [2012] UKUT 129 (TCC), any contract requires offer and acceptance.

 

The Claimant was simply contracted by the landowner to provide car-park management services and is not capable of entering into a contract with the Defendant on its own account, as the land is owned by and the terms of entry set by the landowner.

 

 

Accordingly, it is denied that the Claimant has authority to bring this claim.

The proper Claimant is the landowner.

 

 

A CPR 31.14 request was made to the Claimant on the 24 September 2016 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of proof of assignment from the landlord to create contracts and make claims in their own name and proof of planning permission granted for signage under the Town and Country Planning Act 2007 .

 

 

A response to this request was received on 6 October 2016 from the Claimant denying the request.

 

4. Furthermore if there was a contract, it is denied that the penalty charge is incorporated into the contract. As per Thornton v Shoe Lane Parking [1971] 2 QB 163, the relevant term must be made known before a contract was formed.

 

 

Here, the charge was not incorporated into the contract because the signage in which it states no stopping could only be read by stopping the vehicle.

 

5. Save as expressly mentioned above, the Particulars of Claim is denied in its entirety.

It is denied that the Claimant is entitled to the relief claimed or any relief at all.

 

I was meant to declare to all parties 15 days before the hearing any evidence and witnesses but have only provided the above defence.

 

I am just wondering if anyone can provide any insight/experience of what to expect at the hearing.

 

Thank you

B

[dx100uk]

you come back 4mts later....

 

so what DQ did you file

what WS did you file

what docs have BW sent in their bundle?

[Barno12]

No WS(witness statement?) filed.

 

BW legal have sent no docs other than a DQ saying witnesses TBC and they ticked for mediation which I didn't.

 

DQ I put no to mediation

Yes to agree to small claims track.

Liverpool for preferred court

No to expert evidence

 

TBC to witnesses... I haven't submitted anything for this.

Will this go against me?

 

Yes to some days I could not attend

 

No to not requiring an interpreter

 

And that was it.

 

Thanks

 

B

[ericsbrother]

you need copies of the other cases from the same place where VCS's claim was chucked out,

you can find references to these on the parking pranksters blog.

 

Quote the claim number, date, court and the precis given.

 

Some judges are snotty about this and demand full transcripts so ask the prankster if they are available.

 

Dont just rely on VCS cases,

there are plenty of others where prohibitive signage were involved

-ES parking at Spinningfields,

PCM at heath parade etc.

 

Use screenshots of the pranksters blog if you cant dig out anything else.

 

You will need pictures of the signage, an indication on a map as to where they area and the relationship to where you were parked.

 

Your defence above misses some of the most valuable points and that is the signage itself cannot form a contract if it is prohibitive.

 

you cant sue someone for not murdering someone else(extreme example) and in the example here you cant agree to break a contract (or the law) before then doing so.

 

This means that any action by you is trespass at best and that is only actionable by the landowner.

 

Again, you have to reel off examples of this rather than just saying it, judges tend not to have intimate knowledge of parking law.

 

You should also hammer the poimt about lack of keeper liability and VCS failures to adhere to the protocols of the POFA. To this end asking for strict proof of evidence that they have a cause for action against the defendant would we a sensible move.

 

Some judges again fail to understand the law on this point and declare that the defendant is the driver or that the driver is a "servant" of the keeper (utter rubbish, the case lae on this is about company lorries and unknown drivers and a chauffeur running a red light)

 

so copies of POFA,

Eliot v Loake,

CPS v AJH films etc

to rebut them when BWL mention them

(they will, they will also try and claim POFA adhered to when it wasnt)

 

Take copy of the NTK and with a spare copy highlight all of the bits where the law isnt followed and the same on the POFA (mostly paras 6 and 9 but look further than that)

 

you will need to write a witness statement.

 

this is your version of events and why the claim is duff,

referring to the other cases,

documents etc that you are going to rely on.

 

It is signed off with a statement of truth and dated.

 

Copies of all evidence to be submitted to court and BWL by the date ordered.

DO NOT SEND IT TO BWL EARLY,

 

they will use it to formulate their claim rather than having a claim and then submit their bit to court.

 

If they get yours on the last day allowed they can only submit late and if they do you object to the court in writing and on the day.

 

Another thing you will need to do is challenge the POC as not containing the evidence of a debt.

Do this as a separate letter under CPR 16.4

 

The claim wont have the detail at present to mean anything so you might get the thing struck out before you have to speak

[Barno12]

Thanks for the advice, the court letter said I had to submit any evidence which was going to be used to all parties 14 days prior to the court date, I'm at the 14 days tomorrow would this mean that I can't rely on anything other than what I submitted as the original defence at the court hearing?

[ericsbrother]

no, it means that you now have to pull your finger out and get your defence in.

 

Use all of the points already raised and all of the new ones.

 

You should also hammer home the point about VCS failing to show a cause for action by way of respinding to a CPR 31.14 asking for proof of a contract with the landowner that assigns the right to enter into contracts with the public and to make claims in their own name.

 

Also point out that they didnt have planning permission at the time of the event for their signage so they are there illegally (read up on that and performance of contracts) and so you ask that the claim be struck out for the lack of locus standi and a cause for action.

 

Again, the judge may not read the papers until the night before so dont expect to arrive at court and be told that you have won but make sure the first thing you ask before VCS get a chance to speak is ask about this and demand sight of their authority.

 

You may also find that their legal rep has no right of audience so read up on that and ask about it.

 

Reason is they usually use a solicitor for hire or some paralegal service that isnt involved in the litigation itself so are thus barred from speaking.

 

they can carry the papers and hand them over but if they dont have the right credentials they have to keep their mouth shut..

 

ParkingPranksters blog has plenty about this in the January section.

Read it and then copy the relevant parts of the law as mentioned and take that with you as well.

 

Everything you say and do must be supported by paperwork if at all possible.

The other side will have some generic paperwork that isnt applicable but will be stuffed by this.

 

You dont have to challenge the right of audience beforehand as you dont know who is going to pitch up.

 

If it isnt an employee of VCS or BWL directly you challenge.

 

As there are only a couple of sols at BWL it is unlikely they will attend in person so do have a go at whoever it is.

[Barno12]

Thank you very much ericsbrother

 

I have dropped the bloody ball with this as submitted my defence and not my witness statement so won't be able to get it to the court or bwl within the 14 day limit. It is actually today.

 

I found a couple of discontinuation of claim from bwl for the same site as me on that parking prankster blog and a real useful post on the signage of that site there too. Thanks for that. But I can't use them as evidence now can I?

 

I also wonder how close to the court date it was when bwl decided to discontinue. I suspect that I would have heard something by now if they had decided to do that with my case.

 

So not having issued my witness statement I assume I can only turn up to court with what I have already submitted in the defense?

 

The original NTK was unfortunately misplaced around the time I first received it. Before bwl got involved etc

 

Thanks

 

B

[dx100uk]

when is it due?

[Barno12]

Update

I have just picked up my emails and BW legal have at 16.59 emailed me a copy of their defence

 

 

21 pages in which they have attached copies of the original NTK,

map of the area and marked where i was stopped in relation to this

and the signage,

plus photos of the signage.

 

They state in their defence that they have been granted a non exclusive license by the landowner of the site to occupy the site and provide a parking control service to enforce the T&Cs of the site,

they have provided a copy of the contract between the landowner and VCS.

 

They state that the signage specifically detail the T&Cs and by stopping the vehicle i therefore accepted the T&Cs and that by seeing the signage i would have therefore known a contract was being formed.

 

With regards to the signage not being clear they state that they are a member of an Accredited Trade Association and to access keeper details from the DVLA they must adhere to the schemes code of practice and that their signs fully comply with this.

 

 

They state that the signs are clearly displayed and that i would have had the opportunity to read and understand them before i stationed the vehicle on the roadway.

 

They have also stated in establishing that there has been offer and acceptance, the signage situated across the Car Park forms a unilateral offer to anyone wishing to park their vehicle at the site.

 

Having considered the advice you have given and looking at parkingprankster blog

 

 

i think the points they make in their defence all could be argued against but as i have missed the deadline on the submission of statements and further evidence am I now in a very weak position with my case in court?

 

Thanks

B

[Barno12]

It was due today I have messed up on the dates

[dx100uk]

you are a litigant in person [LiP]

 

you are allowed leeway

 

get it done and posted to the court recorded say tomorrow

 

the one to BW can be sent 2nd class with free POP no rush

don't sign their one

[dx100uk]

hey great they've filed their s

you now have one over on them!!

 

get going..

EB will be here in the morning.

[Barno12]

Great thanks very much

 

B

[dx100uk]

get theirs scanned up for EB for the morning.

to ONE MULTIPAGE PDF PLEASE ONLY

 

 

follow the upload

[Barno12]

Apologies about the file size.

It was a scanned pdf that bwl sent which was 8 MB and poor quality

Doing it at the highest compression was unreadable so I opted for the medium.

 

Thanks

 

B

docs1.pdf

[silverfox1961]

Apologies Barno. I have had to hide your attachment as you have left in various codes and reference numbers. This will positively identify you as it stands. Can you retry and make sure that anything that will identify you is hidden.

[ericsbrother]

report to the court that you didnt receive a legible copy and ask BWL for one to be sent through the post. That will cost them a few quid so they wont like it, they use the email to try and circumvent the timescale set for sending the WS and will be delighted you cant read it

This is why you never give these bandits your email or phone number.

[Barno12]

thanks Ericsbrother I have gone back to BWL and said the documents are not legible something which I will be reporting to the court and requesting they send it in the post. I am just writing up the defence now

[dx100uk]

docs in post 44 sorted now gents

ive taken your recent one down as you'd still left numbers

 

 

dx

[Barno12]

Thanks dx

[ericsbrother]

The claim doesnt say why the money is owed, is it as a contractual claim or for breach of contract?

 

points 26 and 27 really say it all,

to accept their offer you have to stop and read the sign.

By stopping to do so your breach the terms.

 

This is clearly an unfair contract,

it could be phrased as £100 fine for reading this notice and it wouldnt be any worse.

 

Also, they mention your defence,

you will have to expand on these point and make the other parts regarding the signage being prohibitive fit in with that.

 

As said, there are a number of reports on the parkingprankster's blog so copy them and use them as part of your evidence

 

Point 31,

how can they claim the amount of £100 is not to dissuade people form parking?

It clealy state no stopping so that menas if it is a contyractual charge it is of a punitive nature,

it can do nothing else because there isnt a genuine offer of a contract as the motorist is not given anything as a consideration.

 

point 33,

they mention car park

- this is because they are using a cut and paste WS,

this has nothing to do with a car park or even parking activity

 

34

the costs are not detailed to the driver,

VCS have not determined who the driver was at the time and so they would need to enter into a separate contract with the defendant in any other capacity and this wasnt done, therefore the cost cannot said to be a contractual term .

 

In the last words they say it is money due under a contract so how does this sit with the signage saying no stopping and thus any stopping would be a breach of that condition.

 

VCS are not in a position to make any claim for damages for trespass, which failing to adhere to an instruction not to stop would be

 

one thing we dont know is what your handwritten letter said.

If you wrote as the driver then you have to rely on the prohibitive nature of the signage and thus no contract and therefore the amount claimed would also be a penalty as there is nothing to consider and no performance by VCS.

 

If you didnt say you were the driver then you can rely on the POFA to say there is no keeper laibility in this matter and put it to strict proof as to who the driver was at the time.

 

They havnet mentioned this at all so wont be able to trot out the usual rubbish about Eliot v Loake and the driver being your servant.

 

This interpretation law was succeeded by compusory insurance for all drivers back in the 1970's and the other example that they raise refers to a company lorry with multiple drivers so employer vicariuously liable anyway.

 

Have you copied all of the previous losses at this site and other similar examples such as ES at Spinningfields?

 

You will have to and send the details as part of your evidence pack but not in the text of your WS, just refer to them