ESA or PIP?

[Matthew31]

What would the difference be between the 2?

 

When I can get to my GP, i'm looking at putting in a claim for 1 or the other.

 

This problem is surrounding severe anxiety and some depression. The main issue is the nervousness. As far back as I can remember it has always been a thing, but over time has become much worse. I remember being in a computer game store with my mum when I was 8, and she let me go to the counter to pay for the games. I was physically nervous at the counter, shaking, struggling to make eye contact and constantly fiddling with things. So, I know this nervousness has been a thing for at least 23 years.

 

The NHS over time have made it worse, not better. As the nervousness became worse, I went to GP's many times who didn't have a clue. There was never any understanding and the minimal help provided was insufficient.

 

Over time, due to the lack of social skills and extreme nervousness, I was heading ever closer to total social isolation. The NHS had chance after chance to do something about that by providing me with help, yet I was always misdiagnosed or not fully understood.

 

Now, after the death of mum earlier this year, i'm in that place of 100% social isolation. No friends, no family left really and my nervousness at an all time peak which prevents me breaking the isolation. I have been relying on alcohol a lot of the time recently to get out and do shopping (A few pints reduces the nervousness).

 

It is quite a complex situation especially as Dr's don't seem to fully understand it and never have.

 

I feel I need to know which would be most suitable for me (and the benefit with the lowest amount of work involved to get it, because I do struggle concentrating on things and find a lot very overwhelming).

 

Thanks

[Sparks_]

Both take a lot of work to get, PIP is a benefit to help with a disability, so you can still be in work and get PIP, still have to fill in a rather long form and most probably go for an assessment.

ESA is a 'sickness' benefit for those who are too ill to work, another long and detailed form to fill out and more than likely have to go for a F2F assessment.

Neither benefit is easy to get now

Oh and you can get both at the same time if you qualify.

[antone]

ESA is an "income replacement" benefit - that is, it is paid to people who are unable to work because of illness or incapacity, and is intended to cover those everyday needs that everyone has: food, clothing, electricity/gas bill and so on. You qualify initially by making a claim and providing a sick note (now renamed as "fit notes" in an act of Orwellian linguistic manipulation) to the DWP. After your claim has been running for a while (a couple of months, perhaps) you will be called to attend a Work Capability Assessment, often referred to as a "medical", in which you must demonstrate that you meet the various "descriptors" and as such that it is not reasonable to expect you to work or look for work at the moment.

 

PIP is intended for those whose illness or disability means that they have extra needs, over and above those of a healthy or able-bodied person. These needs can be related to mobility or care. The expectation is that these needs cost money to deal with. It is non-contributory and non means tested, which means that you can receive it whether or not you are working and whether or not you are on another benefit. So it's possible to receive both ESA and PIP. PIP is also based on descriptors, though not the same ones as ESA.

 

I haven't had to claim either myself, so I'll let others discuss their experiences of them.

[Matthew31]

Thank you both. Yeah I understand it is very hard to get either (but just wasn't sure if 1 would be slightly easier) which in part is why I have been living on a nil income basis since coming off carers allowance as it's a battle I could have done without.

 

Might have to be PIP by the sounds of it. If this was a few years ago, it would have been short term ESA, as I wasn't as socially isolated (due to caring for mum) but the NHS really let me down and the inevitable has happened.

 

1 of the problems I face now will indeed be the extra needs. I know there is a very likely potential of me becoming an alcoholic in the future. (since when I leave the home, i'm extremely nervous) If I need shopping, I will rely on alcohol to minimise the nervousness. The only way I see to stop that becoming a thing would be to use some service where I pay someone who I can get to know well as a friend to accompany me, keep the nervousness reduced so I don't have to drink alcohol.

 

The hard part will be with the GP. The NHS have failed to understand previously and the only way they will understand this time is if the read around 20 typed of pages explaining the situation.

 

I heard there is something to do with special circumstances that can swing a claim in someones favour? I don't know if it will count with me, but my special circumstances argument would be that if I was refused the benefit, I would remain as I am now (nil income). Then once the last of my cash has run out on bills, I will be homeless

[Nystagmite]

I've never heard of the special circumstances you've refered to. Do you have a link to them, please?

 

To claim PIP, you need to have the care and /or mobility needs (not diagnosis) for 3 months and expect them to last for another 9. There's no such limit for ESA.

[Matthew31]

Thanks, sorry for the late reply. Well it's on 1 of the forms I downloaded about ESA. I think it was an application form with points scored depending on what is ticked. The last part said special circumstances if ESA is not awarded (i.e someone would harm themselves or others).

[Nystagmite]

Ah, I know what you mean now.

 

Basically, you can be treated as unfit for work and placed in the support group even if you don't meet the criteria (score 15 points) if you have a condition which would cause harm to you or someone else.

[Matthew31]

Basically the way it seemed was if not getting ESA would cause something like self harm it would mean extra points.

 

This year to be fair I have tried to take my own life once (It was the low of the moment), as well as trying in other years. So if ESA wasn't granted to me, I would be effectively homeless which would be likely to lead to more incidences for obvious reasons (Mental health problems and living on the streets).

 

By all means, I'm not all about the money but the reality of life is without money, people cannot live at all. So if i'm going to get anywhere long term, part of that would include getting the money short term

[Nystagmite]

You wouldn't get extra points. They'd place you in the support group if you didn't score 15 points and meet the criteria for support group if you could prove you were a danger to yourself other people.

 

it's either reg 29 or 35. There are people who understand it better than I do. But that's the basics of it.

[Matthew31]

Thank you, I guess I will just see how it goes then.

 

I feel more determined based on the circumstances of being refused any help at all. If it comes to an appeal then theres about 70 pages of relevant personal diary for them to read and 16gb of private, personal video blogs from the last 7 years.

 

4 or 5 years ago when I saw what was perhaps the 7th different GP about these problems, I was really hoping that time would make a change. I was hoping for medical help as well as ESA short term to get me back on my feet and eventually get a job. Both were refused and I ended up being forced to claim carers allowance to look after mum.

 

I was really heading towards social isolation because my ill mother wasn't going to be around much longer, but after seeing a further 4 different GP's since, it was still the same with being fobbed off. Now mum is gone, i'm in total social isolation and my health problems have been allowed to progress.

 

So really, misdiagnosis and being fobbed off has allowed things to get to the point they are at, therefore, unfortunately, i'm further off being fit enough to work, which I shouldn't be punished for by them

[Matthew31]

And so it begins (almost)....

 

I wanted to make this thread also to help others with info they might find helpful. In a few weeks I should be at the point of claiming ESA.

 

I have been unwell for most of my life. I have problems communicating with people face to face and i'm incredibly nervous for no reason when I leave the home. People often get the wrong idea of me and misinterpret nervousness as being on drugs, up to no good or just being a weirdo.

 

I'm heavily restricted in life because of this. I can't learn to drive, make friends or do any of the activities I want to do. This has pushed me closer to social isolation and allowed depression to come into it. When I do go out to get shopping, often alcohol is consumed before to reduce the nervousness symptoms both physically (to stop people laughing at me) and mentally (feelings of cramps in legs, heavy eyes).

 

Previously I did all I could to avoid being on benefits. I had the option at 18 years of age to go on carers allowance as I was helping to care for a disabled family member. I turned it down though and went on JSA instead (for less money), to try and build a future for myself with working. Eventually I was employed (still for less money than I would have had on CA), but I struggled there.

 

I kept the job as long as I could before having to leave. Throughout this time I went to GP's many times to be misdiagnosed, not understood and to be told there is nothing wrong with me apart from a bit of stress.

 

A while after leaving my job, I knew I needed to be on ESA short term for money to live on, combined with having a doctor who fully understands so I can get the help to be fit enough to work. I changed GP's (again) who at first seemed to understand and signed me off, allowing me to claim ESA, but a few weeks later, went back on their understanding and refused to give me another sick note, meaning my ESA was stopped.

 

Years before this the close family member I looked after had passed away, but my mother was also diagnosed with the same rare form of early onset parkinson's disease. At this point she was on DLA with the mobility component. This meant I could claim CA for looking after her and reluctantly had no choice but to do so.

 

Throughout my time on CA I knew that mum might not have much longer to live, and when she passes away, I am going to be left completely isolated and in a very bad situation. So I tried time and time again to see different GP's in the hope of getting help. Alas, none of them understood and in several appointments with different GP's, I was again misdiagnosed, told its only stress or told there is nothing wrong with me.

 

In the end, earlier this year mum did pass away and I was left in the situation of isolation (with no friends or family) that I tried hard to avoid and my CA was stopped.

 

Right so on to more DWP orientated stuff.

 

As I posted in another thread, I received inheritance and showed this to the housing benefit department. I arranged to be on a nil income claim with them, who looked at my inheritance amount, did some calculations and worked out I would still be paid full housing benefit.

 

I had plans for this money which included giving some to charity's who really helped mum and buying a few things for myself that mum would have wanted me to have.

 

I intended to see a GP to try and claim ESA as soon as possible, but I found out the DWP would class me giving money to charity as "deprivation of capital"... which was a battle I just didn't want to get into. I was dealing with a lot already, and didn't need the extra battle of documenting and sending off where I spent my inheritance.

 

I saw that on the ESA application form, it asks if you have received inheritance in the last 6 months. So my plan was to donate what mum would have wanted me to donate to charity and to support myself, and pay all bills for 6 months out of the inheritance.

 

Now as of nearly the end of this month, the 6 month point would have been reached.

 

At that point I will be seeing a new GP at a different GP surgery and have a large selection of paperwork with me documenting evidence of my health problems.

 

I'm hoping they do understand where others have failed to do so, agree that I am unfit to work and issue me with an unfit for work note which will allow me to start my ESA claim.

 

The claim will be based on Social anxiety, depression, bereavement, nervousness and social isolation. As well as the "exceptional circumstances" rule.

 

 

In regards to the "exceptional circumstances" rule, my understanding is it is where people can be placed on ESA if there is risk to that person or another person's health if that person was refused ESA.

 

Proving this could be difficult but not impossible. I have tried to take my own life twice already (once this year) and I feature in 1 of the "at risk" groups (Living alone, socially isolated). Without sounding too morbid, if I was not granted ESA, I would have no money to cover the bills which would mean I lose my home and end up homeless. I refuse to let that happen and after the loss of mum and hard times throughout. Rather than live on the streets, I will end things on my terms with a plan I have thought up very carefully. I already have very little in my life and my home is the only thing I have left.

 

 

So that is all for now. Hopefully my understanding of what I need to do is correct and the next step will be around the end of this month going to the GP.

 

Thanks

[Rexroth]

I agree that you need help but what kind of help. What is.are the medical conditions you suffer from? As far as I can see they are depression and various anxiety disorders for which treatment is available. Why does the GP not diagnose these and offer treatment? I do sympathise as a long time ago I had to leave teaching following a breakdown. Wishing you well.

[mrpopperspenguins]

I had no problem with my GP he gave me one of those assessments forms to fill out, he totalled my score and started me on the road to psychiatric help - I cannot understand why a GP would refuse you that.

 

I had no records of attempted suicide or anything like that I was just depressed.

After two years counselling I was diagnosed with border line personality disorder (which I did not disagree with) it answered a lot of questions for me.

 

There is usually a wait to see a MH team, but I cannot see why your GP would refuse

[Shoelover]

As I see it, you have a short term need for a med cert which I don't doubt you will get.

 

Have you ever had a formal diagnosis. I ask because how you refer to yourself and your feelings sounds a lot like a more extreme version of a friend of mine. At age 40 she was diagnosed as having aspergers. She says once she had an understanding she could start to turn things round and find coping strategies. I'm not saying you have aspergers too, but I am saying you too could get help.

From your post you are intelligent, sensitive and articulate and it's sad that you are so isolated. Perhaps that is something you could broach with the new GP.

 

I hope I havn't offended you as that sincerely isn't my intention.

[mrpopperspenguins]

As I see it, you have a short term need for a med cert which I don't doubt you will get.

 

Have you ever had a formal diagnosis. I ask because how you refer to yourself and your feelings sounds a lot like a more extreme version of a friend of mine. At age 40 she was diagnosed as having aspergers. She says once she had an understanding she could start to turn things round and find coping strategies. I'm not saying you have aspergers too, but I am saying you too could get help.

From your post you are intelligent, sensitive and articulate and it's sad that you are so isolated. Perhaps that is something you could broach with the new GP.

 

I hope I havn't offended you as that sincerely isn't my intention.

Same with me - once I had the diagnosis I could start to learn how to live with it, and how to form coping strategies.

Still not easy but it is far better being on the inside looking out than the other way around (if that makes sense)

[Matthew31]

Thanks all, nope nobody has offended me at all. I appreciate all the comments.

 

The problem with GP's is understanding and for them to know what is wrong. When I first went to the GP about these problems 10 years ago, I was told it's only stress. No treatment given at all. Stress doesn't do what my health problems have done to me though. After other appointments with being told it's just stress I did my own research to see what it could be.

 

The only thing I came up with was Social anxiety. So rather than them diagnose me based on my symptoms, it was me who had to go to them saying I had social anxiety. The GP's didn't take it seriously though as to them Social anxiety is a very common problem that doesn't cause too many problems in someones life. On those occasions I was told to try a bit harder to get out there. Other than that I was given different medications twice, which were ineffective and if anything, because they were to hand, were used in suicide attempts.

 

I saw MH team members in hospital who had their own opinions of my problems. They couldn't understand how I had been a nervous person all of my life and said how this social anxiety must have developed at some point in my life via a negative experience. I told them that wasn't the case, but they insisted it was. The only advice I had off them was to go back to my GP and in the mean time, try some breathing exercises (which have never worked).

 

The problem which is never understood is this might not even be social anxiety, but just complete nervousness. "Nervousness" isn't really a medical condition though is it?

 

That's what it is. Since the day I was born, well from as early as I can remember I was a very nervous person. It didn't cause too many problems at a young age though because at primary school, friendships were based on who likes the same cartoon or video game, not a full personality. As I got older where personalities counted more, I struggled completely. It took me until the age of 20 to realise something was wrong though because I had never felt any different and so thought until then the nervousness I had was entirely normal. I was at a point with no friends and physically shaking when doing everyday things like going into a shop. I saw other people not being nervous like me in shops so started seeking medical help.

 

For all I know, it could even be early parkinsons disease. The close family member I cared for was a nervous person all of his life too. He had no friends, no girlfriend or wife. He struggled in similar ways. He was eventually diagnosed with early onset parkinsons disease and for the last 10 years of his life, all he had left was me, my mum and betting on horse racing.

 

My mum was the same as well. A very nervous person who was with my dad a short space of time who she split up from when she was expecting me. She struggled to make any friends, was very nervous, then was diagnosed with the same thing.

 

If I did have that, then there's no way to know until symptoms like a constant shake in my hand or dribbling started. So that's not a factor for now.

 

 

For now it's just about having the full understanding. I just want a GP to see how bad the nervousness has been for me in life and for them to accept that with everything considered, at this moment in time i'm unfit to work.

 

Then over time, working with them not to find how to cure it (as it seems unlikely it will ever be cured), but how to have some sort of quality of life again. Maybe be introduced to new friends, even be assigned a social worker to check up on me and try to get me involved in some activity groups.

 

 

The nervousness causes 2 things that can lead to depressive lows. First off, people laughing or making judgements that I am on drugs. This wouldn't be as bad if I had other things in my life. It just hurts more when I make an effort to try and someone ask's me if I have been on drugs, or if i'm leaving a shop and some security guard asks to look in my bags because I looked suspicious in store (i.e the nervousness/on edge/jumpy look made it seem to them I could be shoplifting).

 

Secondly, what I miss out on because of the nervousness. I really like history and like days out to museums as I know quite a bit about it. I would like to go to some, see what they have on display and talk to people to share my knowledge and learn something new.

 

The reality though is when I have gone, the nervousness takes over. I can't enjoy looking at things because of heavy eyes, dizziness and cramps in my legs. When people have tried to make small talk, I cant help but look at the floor when talking to them. My mind goes blank, I end up agreeing with whatever they say and the few things I do say either doesn't make sense or they cant actually hear me (They ask me to repeat myself because my voice gets too quiet and I end up speaking way too fast).

 

Those things are where the depression side of things come from. Aside from the bereavement I am still going through, it's the restrictions the nervousness places on my life. I want a normal life, to have friends, be able to do hobbies and to have a job, but the nervousness prevents that which then makes me low.

[Shoelover]

That second post has said even louder and more clearly how much you need help. Perhaps you could contact mind & see if they have any groups in your area. You sound intelligent, loyal and sensitive.

Your benefits are a short term need. You deserve better than this x

[WarrenBuffet]

God bless you Matthew, Im sorry I don't have any advice but just wish you luck and more confidence in yourself.

[Matthew31]

Thanks. I asked them before (MIND), they said the best thing I could do is see my GP as they have nothing in my area.

 

When mum was alive I spoke to her social worker via emails, who told me they would try and arrange something for me but they never got back to me. I emailed the council to ask if there are any carer support groups I could take part in. They said the only thing they could offer is respite care (respite care was already arranged for mum). I spoke to mums parkinsons specialist who told me I would need to go through the local organisation who help people with mental health problems (they told me I needed to be referred by my GP). I spoke to 2 of mums support workers. 1 said they are unwell and didn't know what to suggest, the other said I would need to go through my GP.

 

Then it's been back round in circles.

 

With social anxiety, the correct help would have been medication and CBT to "cure" or "manage" it. Medication from before has not helped me at all. Then I doubt CBT (which was never offered) would help as it's about changing your way of thinking from i.e "People are judging me, i'm filling up with worry over this" to "No, nobody is looking at me or judging me at all, i'm relaxed". My thoughts are nothing like this. If anything, I know i'm not a bad looking guy who knows more than most about 6 or 7 different topics. I don't care what people think of me when i'm outside, but what I do care about is what the small minority actually say to me about being on drugs or just laughing at me.

 

 

The only complete cure would be acceptance in society, but there will always be people who perceive a young man in his 30's who is shaking/jumpy as on drugs and who speaks very quietly as having something wrong with them.

 

The GP visit in a few weeks won't be for any cure at all. I accepted years back that this wont be cured, but acceptance on it's own hasn't prevented the situation i'm in now. I'm hoping the GP will understand that and I leave the GP surgery with nothing but a note enabling me to claim ESA and knowing for once they understood.

 

Then once the application form has been completed and sent off, I can continue having appointments with the GP to find some way for me to live with it. Rather than have to live with it on my own which clearly hasn't worked.

[Rexroth]

"Nervousness" isn't really a medical condition though is it? Anxiety, another name for nervousness, can manifest as several mood disorders like generalised anxiety disorder, social anxiety, various phobias etc. and is very real and can be very disabling and certainly a medical condition. Stress is serious and should not be trivialised.

 

Edited post as some not now relevant.

[Shoelover]

Then keep trying Mathew.. you obviously deserve better. You have so much in front of you and deserve to enjoy it x

[Rexroth]

CBT is rather different from what you suggest. The start is what you think and do.From this baseline, you try out other alternatives both in thought and behaviour. Also, it involves looking at expectations "The only complete cure would be acceptance in society" which you define in a particular way. But there will always be people who will think of you in a particular way as they do of anybody. Perhaps their opinion need not matter to you as much as it does. These ideas and similar ones would be presented in CBT for you to test. Again wishing you well.

[Shoelover]

Ps I''m not a dr but so much you sound like my friend. Aspergers can manifest in many ways- perhaps you could research it?

[Matthew31]

It's just really from experiences. On one of the first times I went to the GP about this and it was put down to stress it was when I was working. The GP signed me off work for 1 week (that was the "treatment"). Then another time when I was told it was stress I wasn't given any help whatsoever apart from being told "It just seems like stress as your mum isn't very well" and I can't remember what else was said but I left there with nothing. So it's linking my problem to what the NHS understands of it. "Stress" to the GP's I have seen is a mild problem that is not serious.

 

The same for anxiety. I know there are several types of it ranging from people who have it very mild, to people who have it severe. The GP's I have mentioned it to though all said it's a "common" problem which people are able to manage in their lives.

 

When GP's qualify, mental health is optional for them to study. It's probable that most people they see with anxiety have it mildly, so therefore to GP's it's a mild problem.

 

Through this battle there will be the GP to face and then the Maximus team for the ESA assessment. If this new GP wrongly thinks anxiety is mild they might not see a reason to give me a doctors note or won't help by providing evidence to the Maximus team.

 

The thing with "The only complete cure would be acceptance in society" was more down to at this moment while I am in the situation of isolation. As comments from people hurt more when I have a day of trying my best to change things then it happens. It's more about knowing I dont have much in my life and then someone says something nasty to me. The only way to change that feeling is to shrug it off but only if I had other things in my life.

 

I did just have a look about Aspergers ShoeLover and i'm really thinking that I could well have that. It seems to describe me in many ways.

 

If I did have that, it would take quite some time and many assessments to confirm if I did or didn't? Which wouldn't allow me to claim ESA until I was diagnosed with it?

[mrpopperspenguins]

I am sorry to ask why would you not want to seek proper treatment - your GP will help if asked.

No GPs are not trained in MH matters that is why they refer you.

You seem very capable of explaining your needs and wants in emails why not write some down and read them to your GP.

Some of this does not sense to me.

 

I saw MIND yes they have limited resources but they wrote to my local area MH team for me.

 

I started with CBT and they soon found I needed more than that, I think they start most people on the basic level, outside one person who I did not gel with (and MIND helped me sort that) I can say 100% all my help has saved my life.