Elliot Davies Court Enforcement doorstep visit this morning

[Giveitblackmore]

Please forgive me if I'm going over old ground

and the info I seek is already out there but I'm very distressed and up against time.

 

I have an outstanding debt to a private members club

which despite my disputing the charges

( i cancelled the membership when i hit hard times) has apparently gone to court

 

I received a NOTICE OF ENFORCEMENT a couple of weeks ago for the sum of #1200 approx from CES..

..asking me to pay or make an arrangement by 21st July

I am used to being sent intimidation letters by DCA's and I took no notice

 

this morning 22nd July two CES enforcement people turned up at my door demanding nearly 2700 pounds that apparently includes further costs as its gone to high court..

 

..to be honest they took me by surprise at 6.30 this morning and I was going to pay but haven't got this sum available..

 

.Ive told them I will look to sort it today to buy time

now I dont know what to do to avoid what they say is next which is a warrant for my arrest as well as removing goods

(which I know they are not entitled to do if my small knowledge serves me right.

 

HELP!

Do I try to make an arrangement with the company?

What about these exorbitant extra costs?

 

Any help very gratefully received as Im at my wits end!

 

Thank you

[Bailiff Advice]

It is such a shame that you chose to ignore the Notice of Enforcement a few weeks ago and this could have avoided some of the fees.

In the first instance, did you have a car outside of your home this morning?

Do you have a vehicle and is it's value over £1,350? (some vehicles may be exempt, but even if they are, the 'exemption' level is only up to £1,350)

Did the enforcement company leave any notices with you to show what fees have been applied?

PS: Forget about the threat of arrest....it is just that....a threat and sadly it is used to encourage payment.

[Peris]

I know an expert will reply to you soon, but I just want to say that, according to a regular BBC TV programme I watch, I believe High Court Bailiffs CAN enter your house and seize your possessions without notice, and you're perhaps lucky they haven't done that already in your case. Sorry about your trouble, and hope it gets sorted.

[Giveitblackmore]

I know I feel like such an idiot..I guess Im just so overwhelmed with everything at the minute it slipped through. I dont have a vehicle so no problem there. They didn't leave me anything with regard to fee breakdown.

 

 

Thank you so much for your reply..much appreciated

[Giveitblackmore]

Thank you Peris...Appreciate your reply and the info.

[Bailiff Advice]

I have just noticed when re-reading your question, that you had up until yesterday (21st July) to either make full payment or to agree a payment arrangement with the enforcement company.

 

Accordingly, given that the enforcement agent attended at 6.30am the morning after the expiry of the 'Compliance' stage, it can only be the case that this morning's visit should only attract the 1st enforcement stage fee as outlined below of £190 (plus 7.5%) etc.

 

I cannot see any way in which the 2nd stage fee (of £495) can possibly apply.

 

As mentioned in my above post, we need to know what fees have ben applied to your account.

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1/schedule/made?view=plain

[Peterbard]

Hi Giveitblackmore

 

As BA says, at this point they cannot charge the second stage fee.

In HCEO enforcment you cannot make a payment plan at the compliance stage without them visiting and thus incurring the first stage enforcment fee.

 

This is different to ordinary EAs, enforcing say council tax. Unfortunately in order to avoid further action you have to pay in full at compliance.

 

The first visit will bring with it the first stage fee of £190. If however the EA is unable to make a payment arrangment he can move straight to second stage and charge the second stage fee there and then.

 

My personal advice would be to get as much money together to convince the creditor and the bailiff you are willing to pay, and ask to repay the balance over a period you can afford. Unfortunately they will want to take control of goods to secure the arrangment, however if there is nothing there of any value at the time there is nothing they can do.

 

The only way they can then charge the second stage fee is if you default on that arrangment and they have to come back.

[Giveitblackmore]

thank you dodgeball..nuch appreciated..so i should question the fee and get them to reduce before paying anything?..its gone up 1400 since yesterday! how best to do that? do i call the EA?

thanks again

 

thank you BA...how do i get the broken down fee? call the EA?

[Peterbard]

Yes you should. You can get a fee breakdown from their office or the EA can and then give it you but you need it sorted before you make any arrangement to pay, because otherwise you will be paying to much.

 

Be sure to tell them that you fully intend to make a payment arrangement with the bailiff, but you need the correct balance on the account.

[Bailiff Advice]

If you call the enforcement company they will simply advise you to call the individual enforcement agent who visited this morning. If you are concerned about calling...send him a text message.

The fees charged for this ONE visit are quickly questionable and you must get a full breakdown asap.

[Peterbard]

Just to add that when an agrement is made the balance outstanding has to be on it, so you can double check everything is in order, they should leave you a copy of this also.

[Bailiff Advice]

I hadn't realised that DB was typing a reply at the same time.

As you will have gathered....a full breakdown of fees is vital before an agreement is set up.

I suspect that you have been charged a 'removal' stage fee as well.

If so, that fee must be removed before any payment arrangement is agreed.

[Giveitblackmore]

thank you both very very much...i really appreciate your advice..ill report back!

[ploddertom]

I know an expert will reply to you soon, but I just want to say that, according to a regular BBC TV programme I watch, I believe High Court Bailiffs CAN enter your house and seize your possessions without notice, and you're perhaps lucky they haven't done that already in your case. Sorry about your trouble, and hope it gets sorted.

 

Only if you leave your door unlocked so they can walk in or you invite them in - a seriously bad idea.

[ploddertom]

You say you dispute their charges originally. Did you submit a defence & importantly did you attend the Hearing at Court? Would you say you owe them anything and if so how much? What did their terms & conditions say with regards to minimum term & cancellation?

[Giveitblackmore]

Hi Plodderton thank you for your message, much appreciated

 

They went to court without notifying me and the first I heard was when I saw the original judgement that had been served to a previous address...

[brassnecked]

Is a set aside possible if OP can afford to pay the original sum, as papers served to old address and default judgment given?

[ploddertom]

There may be a possibility of applying for Set Aside.

Did the Claimant know your new address?

Did you tell them you were moving?

[Giveitblackmore]

Just want to thank you all for your sage advice....

 

I contacted the EA and pointed out they may have made a teensy error in accounting quoting the material you provided and funnily enough he came back, apologised and said they must have made a mistake!

The bill has now magically reduced by 50%

 

With regard to the change of address...

they didn't know my new address as I had had cut contact with the club some months before I moved and before any action was taken so I'm not sure how I stand on setting aside but I'm certainly up for the challenge!

 

Not that I feel qualified to give others advice on here but I have been battling with debt issues for a number of years and I do find that while a lot of the practitioners are awful in so many ways others literally just doing their job

 

it's important to face them and to try not to be rattled.

.I was not armed with the facts this morning before coming on here but once i was it unlocked everything and that is the true wonder of the experts here on the forum.

 

I will be donating to the site as a result of the huge help you've been and long may you help the intimidated and vulnerable so they in turn can help others.

 

Thank you very very much indeed!

[Bailiff Advice]

Enforcement fees reduced by 50% !!!! Excellent outcome.

 

I am sure that the other posters will agree with me, that your kind words are greatly appreciated.

[Coughdrop]

I'm happy to be shown to be wrong here. To me though, while this is undoubtedly a reasonable result, it is nowhere near as good as some appear to think.

 

I received a NOTICE OF ENFORCEMENT a couple of weeks ago for the sum of #1200 approx from CES....asking me to pay or make an arrangement by 21st July

 

So the debt was £1125 + £75 Compliance Stage fee = £1200

 

this morning 22nd July two CES enforcement people turned up at my door

demanding nearly 2700 pounds that apparently includes further costs as its gone to high court..

 

This bill should now have been around an extra £190, so £1200 + £190 = £1390, not the £2700 being demanded (see Post 6).

 

The bill has now magically reduced by 50%

 

Thank you very very much indeed!

 

So the bill reduced by 50%, from the £2700 being demanded to £1350.

 

As shown above, if calculated correctly in line with Post 6, it should have been around £1390.

 

Enforcement fees reduced by 50% !!!! Excellent outcome.

 

I am sure that the other posters will agree with me, that your kind words are greatly appreciated.

 

Enforcement fees payable should have totalled £265 based on Post 6. The debtor appears to have been charged £225 in enforcement fees, a saving of just £40.

 

Obviously I do not need to point out this is very far from a 50% reduction in enforcement fees as claimed above. It's actually a reduction of just 15.1%.

 

As stated above, it is certainly a result, just not as big a result as claimed. It goes without saying your kind words are indeed very much appreciated. It's always nice to have a pat on the back - thank you!

[daverules]

CD you always deserve a pat on the back.

[ploddertom]

Seeing as we don't know exactly what were fees and what was the original debt apart from approx figures quoted earlier then we have to use simple maths.

 

Given the original debt of £1200 + added fees = £2700 - that to me says fees claimed were £1500

 

Now we have the bill cut by 50% is that the total including fees or just the fees alone. If it is the total including fees then that suggests the original debt of £1200 still stands and £150 is to do with fees = a reduction in fees of £1350.

 

If it is just 50% on the fees alone then that suggests the original debt of £1200 + 50% of original fees = £1950 - which to me says the fees are still excessive and should be argued.

 

Really is is no good arguing or debating on figures we do not know of as there are so many figures missing from the original which may or may not include the costs of Execution etc.

[Peterbard]

Post 22 is really about the accuracy of theOPs figures anyway.

[Bailiff Advice]

The fee scale for 'High Court' cases has been significantly improved since 2014. However, the application of the 'second enforcement stage' fee (of £495) or more importantly; when this fee should apply) has been the cause of much debate.

 

In my post number 6, I stated that in this particular case, that it was my opinion, that the visit made to the OP should only have attracted the 'first enforcement stage' fee of £190. I should mention for accuracy, that in this particular case, the fee of £190 would have been slightly more to account for the 7.5% 'uplift.

 

After making my post, I received a couple of messages disputing my opinion. It would seem that the viewpoint from some in the 'High Court' sector, is that, unless full payment or a Controlled Goods Agreement is made at that initial visit, that the account moves to the 'second enforcement stage' and the applicable fee of £495 becomes payable as well. This view is complicated by the wording of clause 7.4 of the Explanatory Memorandum supporting the Taking Control of Goods (Fees) Regulations 2014 which states as follows:

 

The personal liability of the High Court Enforcement Officer has also necessitated the need for High Court enforcement to have first and second enforcement stages with the associated fees.

 

The fee structure for High Court cases also introduces an incentive to enter into, and adhere to, an affordable controlled goods agreement. Unless a debtor pays in full at the compliance stage, the enforcement agent

is obliged to visit the debtor in every High Court case

in order to take control of goods,

thereby triggering the first enforcement stage.

 

If the enforcement agent is then unable to enter into a controlled goods agreement

(and has to take control of goods in another manner) or a debtor defaults on a controlled goods agreement,

the enforcement agent will be under an obligation to remove goods and therefore the second enforcement stage fee will also apply.

 

 

http://www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2014/1/pdfs/uksiem_20140001_en.pdf

 

In this particular case, given that the enforcement agent requested almost £2,700, I would hazard a guess that the 'sale stage fee' (of £525 plus the 7.5% uplift) had also been applied. If so, it should have been removed.