BW legal/ VCS. PCN from 2011

[Empireday]

Hi everyone, I'm a new user and was just wanting advice please.

My car was ticketed by VCS whilst on a business park in 2011. I have never replied to any of the threatening letters that were sent out by Roxbrough etc. I assumed that the claim had been dropped but today I received a letter from BW legal.

I know that anything over 6 years old is unenforceable and they are probably just "chancing" it. Would you advise getting a defence ready in case they take it to the court? Would I be able to use the defence that they cannot prove who was responsible for parking the car? Thoughts please, thanks in advance.

[silverfox1961]

Hi and welcome to CAG.

What a shower of s*** this company is. They are trying it on. This PCN came from a period when PoFA was not in place therefore only the driver was liable. As you didn't respond, they don't know who the driver was and after this length of time, it would be hard for you to remember.

 

If they were stupid enough to try this at court, they would be laughed out in 10 seconds flat.

 

Ignore until either a Letter Before Action or court papers arrive.

[Empireday]

Thanks Silverfox. Any thoughts on what I should do if LBA or court papers do arrive. Do I just send a letter saying no contract was entered into and that I would like to see what proof they have that the registered keeper was actually the driver?

Thanks.

[silverfox1961]

I am assuming this is Vehicle Control Services who are members of the flawed IPC. They do not follow PoFA very often and will assume the driver is also the keeper-even without proof. As the car was ticketed, they will have nothing to say who the driver was so if BW Legal send an LBA, I would respond with the fact that only the driver is liable as this was before the PoFA 2012 came into being and you can neither confirm nor deny who was the driver at that time.

 

If court papers came, you would go online to MCOL and register then defend it. BWL will (probably) offer no evidence and it gets thrown out or they pull out.

 

I doubt it would get that far but you never know the mentality of some people where money is involved.

[ericsbrother]

Well, back in 2011 they would have been BPA members a

nd anyway it is prior to the POFA of Nov 2012 so no keeper liability anyway

 

There is a convention that for parking matters any action started more than a year after the event

has the defence that you cannot possibly be expected to remember who was driving at the time.

 

 

Councils cannot start any action after this cut-off as law

and I doubt if some two-bit cowboy clamper will impress any judge to go against this precedent.

 

 

As there is no keeper liability they wont get anywhere that way

so all in all this is just something they found in the wastepaper bin

and thought they would give it a last hurrah.

 

Can they take it further? yes,

but they will lose hands down for the above reason and many more besides.

 

 

I wouldnt bother responding but if you feel you want to you just deny being the driver at the time

and say that with VCS' lack of a cause for action you will seek a full costs recovery order under CPR 27

and that will include all of your preparation time @£19 per hour

[Empireday]

Just a quick update on the above thread, I sent a letter back stating that I was indeed the registered keeper and I certainly was not liable for the "debt".

They have responded by saying " as the details of the driver have not been forthcoming they reasonably presume that I was the driver and refer me to tho case of ELLIOTT v LOAKE (1982)".

Any thoughts about the next step guys? They say that they will "take our clients instructions to continue through the county court process".

Should I reply or just wait for court papers?

[ericsbrother]

they have tried that one before in court and lost badly so why they think it will be any different this time round I dont know.

As they say- they will take their clients instructions, which means they are going to do nothing at all at this juncture and probably never will.

If you read E v L it is about who was driving at the time of an accident and the driver denied it despite lots of evidence that he was so the statement on assumption unless proven to the contrary is not applicable. In your case they will have to produce that evidence, not just presume and theere is no supporting evidence. This amy mean that if they do try court they wont be found to be vexatious but it wont win them anything

[Empireday]

this is my reply to the latest letter in which they refer to Elliott v Loake.

 

Dear Sirs,

 

I acknowledge receipt of your letter dated xxxxx reference number xxxxxx

 

Please note that I am replying because I was the registered keeper of the vehicle in 2011.

 

The alleged charge is from 2011 which is before the PoFA 2012 was enacted and therefore action can only be taken against the driver. The keeper has no liability whatsoever

 

You refer to the case of Elliott v Loake (1982). This was a criminal law case and has no relevance in this matter. In Eliott v Loake the appeal judge ruled that the appellant was the driver because of ample evidence that he was the driver. Your client has shown no evidence I was the driver, and cannot, because I wasn’t. Your client cannot “presume” that I was.

 

Your client has a lack of cause for action and if you proceed with this vexatious claim I will of course seek a full costs recovery order under CPR27 and that will include all of my preparation time at £19 per hour

 

 

 

Lets see what they think of that.

[ericsbrother]

they know they wer bullsh*tting so hopefully they will now go and hide under a stone somewhere. if they dont then they are doomed to lose their clients money. Maybe that is their business plan as they will make more from that then they will from you by winning a claim.

[Empireday]

Do you think my letter is ok Ericsbrother?

[ericsbrother]

it is fine. basically they go after anyone who doesnt respond or comes out with waffle mitigating their actions. You are denying everything so they will be more circumspect as they know they are in the wrong

[Empireday]

BW legal have now resoponded.

"The balance remains due and owing to our client.

Please be advised that our client does not rely on the POFA 2012

Our client under no circumstances accepts any liability to pay all fee schedules, damages or any other monies to you.

In light of the above, our client has instructed us to commence county court proceedings.

However if you want to avoid the above proceedings please contact our helpful team to pay the balance owed."

 

Is this classed as a letter before court? The "offence" happened in 2011 so of course they don't rely on POFA 2012.

Surely even though they accept no liability for any monies owed to me, its not up to them, it would be up to the court to decide.

Any thoughts from anyone? Is it worth replying to them.

Thanks in advance

[silverfox1961]

They may just try it on. I would consider it to be a letter Before Claim.

 

As this is 5 years ago, you will never be able to confirm or deny who was the driver at that time. As BWL are stating they don't rely on PoFA they will be assuming that the keeper and the driver is one and the same so they will have to prove it to a judge. then there is the fact that they never contacted you in the first place.

[ericsbrother]

IF the matter goes to court they will pay you the £19ph if ordered to do so by a judge.

Their use of irrelevant legal cases tells you that they really dont want to go there and hope you see sense and pay them some money that is not owed before they waste any more of their clients cash on a wild goose chase.

[Empireday]

Thanks Ericsbrother and Silverfox for your advice so far. I just really want the scrounging so and so's to go away.

[ericsbrother]

basically it is not down to waht you want, it is for them to do their worst and be damned by their own actions. shame that it is stressful to be embroiled in their greed and stupidity but the only alternative is to yield to blackmail

[Empireday]

Still not heard anything from them since September. The clock is ticking. No way that I will yield to blackmail and spurious claims.

[ericsbrother]

BW have lost a defended claim very badly recently with the judge saying what a shower they were regarding their behaviour. When this happens it makes the parking co's consider whether they really want to be sheelingf out £400 in expenses for a £100 claim with their own costs on top.

Once bitten twice shy as they say

[Empireday]

Music to our ears. I really can't see how they can expect to win if they do take my case to the small claims court either. Pre 2012 I'm sure they don't have a leg to stand on.

[Empireday]

What were the details on the defeated claim Ericsbrother?

[Liddy82]

Hi all.

 

I recently followed all the advice and sent letters according to the suggestions above. I sent last letter as per Empireday suggested. However, today I received a notice of outstanding parking charge notice, basically saying I have until the 5 Jan 2017 to pay then they will begin court proceedings. I'd be grateful on any advice of what to do next? Do i respond again or ignore?

[Empireday]

Liddy, I have never suggested sending any letters to anyone? I do not feel qualified to offer any advice on these matters.

[dx100uk]

Hi all.

 

I recently followed all the advice and sent letters according to the suggestions above. I sent last letter as per Empireday suggested. However, today I received a notice of outstanding parking charge notice, basically saying I have until the 5 Jan 2017 to pay then they will begin court proceedings. I'd be grateful on any advice of what to do next? Do i respond again or ignore?

 

 

doesn't say will anything

 

 

but you really need to start a new thread

of your own please

[Liddy82]

Liddy, I have never suggested sending any letters to anyone? I do not feel qualified to offer any advice on these matters.

 

I apologise I used the same form of letter you said you had sent. Please could you tell me what response you received after that? And also if anything has happened since?

[ericsbrother]

you start your own thread and give us all of the details- date, time, what you have received so far, what you have written in response etc. Your case will be slightly different so the advice may be different . We cant tell at the moment though.

Hi all.

 

I recently followed all the advice and sent letters according to the suggestions above. I sent last letter as per Empireday suggested. However, today I received a notice of outstanding parking charge notice, basically saying I have until the 5 Jan 2017 to pay then they will begin court proceedings. I'd be grateful on any advice of what to do next? Do i respond again or ignore?