arriva trains wales .lied about boarding station with no ticket . Advice needed

[unclebulgaria67]

They shouldn't concentrate on that.

Whatever reasons they had not to have bought a ticket up to that point can be viewed as irrelevant by the TOC, as, even if no offence had been committed prior to that point, the offence was made out when they lied about their starting station in an attempt to pay a "short fare".

 

It would help if i had read the first post from the OP !

[honeybee13]

It would help if i had read the first post from the OP !

 

Nobody's perfect, UB.

 

HB

[Shaunartis]

Thanks everybody for the help and advice , im going to write my second letter today and get it sent off. I was clearly in the wrong and it was just a stupid moment of madness. Only thing i am worried about is how much the fine is going to be if they do not agree to a out of court settlement , i am unemployed at the moment and anything in the region of £500 plus would be very difficult to pay.

[BazzaS]

Thanks everybody for the help and advice , im going to write my second letter today and get it sent off. I was clearly in the wrong and it was just a stupid moment of madness. Only thing i am worried about is how much the fine is going to be if they do not agree to a out of court settlement , i am unemployed at the moment and anything in the region of £500 plus would be very difficult to pay.

 

An administrative settlement might be a significant sum, and they might not want to accept an offer for instalments .... There aren't many advantages to going to court but the fact that the defendant's means are considered is one of them!

 

If it goes to court you MUST complete and return the court's "means form" so that your financial status can be factored into any penalty.

 

Sadly, stating "I'm an impoverished student" or "I'm unemployed" might be counter-productive with the TOC ; it might mean that they feel it gives you a reason behind offering a short fare other than "a moment of madness".

[Shaunartis]

Thank you i shall let you know how i get off .

[unclebulgaria67]

Thank you i shall let you know how i get off .

 

I think you meant get on.

 

Perhaps if you know someone who can act as a referee to your normal good character, that they can also send a letter to plead for forgiveness.

[Shaunartis]

Hi just a quick question , i am about to send my second response to TIL , do you think it would be worth giving them a call and trying to reach an out of court settlement over the telephone. I am worried sick about this going to court.

[honeybee13]

Hi just a quick question , i am about to send my second response to TIL , do you think it would be worth giving them a call and trying to reach an out of court settlement over the telephone. I am worried sick about this going to court.

 

Hello again.

 

I can see why you would want to ring, but their letter specifically asks you to reply in writing. I think at this stage, the 'attitude test' is important, so I would be inclined to write as they say.

 

Remember that you can still ring them after this letter goes off or after their next reply, and any time up to and including the date of any court case if there is one. You have time.

 

HB

[Shaunartis]

Thank you honeybee for the advice , i really hope they go for out of court settlement. Do you have any idea on how much the fine could be around roughly if it was to go to court?

[honeybee13]

I don't know about fines no, sorry. We need a rail expert. But a court would look at your ability to pay before setting any fine.

 

I'll see if I can find something.

 

HB

[Shaunartis]

Thank you very much HB

[BazzaS]

Either a Bylaw 18 conviction or RORA 1889 s5(3) conviction (for first offence) incurs a "level 3" fine, which sets a maximum according to statute, but the courts will then use the Magistrates Court sentencing guidelines (new edition just released) which deal with s5(3) on page 89

https://www.sentencingcouncil.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/Final-MCSG-July-2016.pdf

 

So, a starting point of a band B fine, with a range of Band A to Band C.

Page 148 for the bands (with their ranges, and the starting point for each band).

Assuming they go for the starting point of Band B : that is a fine of 100% of "relevant weekly income".

Usually, for someone unemployed / on benefits, this is then deemed to be £120/week.

 

A guilty plea attracts a 1/3 reduction : making £80.

There will be a victim surcharge : £30 (10% of fine but a £30 minimum)

The TOC will likely apply for their costs (and compensation: the fare).

 

Expect to be allowed to pay the total at £10/week if unemployed (but it is VITAL to return the "means form" in advance, to the court, else a weekly income of £440 is assumed!)

[Shaunartis]

Thank you for that BazzaS , really appreciate it. Just spoke to a solicitor but he is requesting £1800 to help me not get a criminal record , but that is a fee that is not just possible. See how they respond to my second letter and ill go from there.

[BazzaS]

See previous threads for advice from OCJ re: solicitors and "not getting a criminal record".

(HB, might OCJ drop in on this thread? I think his insight might help?? : he is an "industry expert")

 

How confident is the solicitor? Are they willing to forgo their fee if they don't help you avoid prosecution : that might determine if they are sure or just hoping for the best!

 

My personal view : it is in the TOC's power to choose to prosecute or not. A solicitor can help you write a letter giving you the best chance of avoiding prosecution (but then again so can the people here!) but can't make the TOC not prosecute, if their minds are set on prosecution.

[Shaunartis]

The solicitor seemed confident but the fee was just way to expensive considering my financial situation.

[honeybee13]

The solicitor seemed confident but the fee was just way to expensive considering my financial situation.

 

I understand that, I don't think you need a lawyer at this stage. And the fee sounds high to me with my limited knowledge.

 

I'll send an SOS to a couple of rail people who are here sometimes, to see if they can help.

 

HB

[Shaunartis]

Thank you HB , never will i make this mistake again , So stressed.

[honeybee13]

I know. Hang on in there.

 

I've sent a couple of SOSs for you.

 

HB

[Shaunartis]

Thank you HB

[Stigy]

Hi Shaun,

 

Sorry for the late arrival...just got an SOS and here I am lol (work gets in the way sometimes!).

 

The problem with Solicitors is that unless they specialise in railway matters, they often promise things they can't deliver.

 

For example, some solicitors are under the impression that Railway matters are al civil ones, which is incorrect.

The also don't often appreciate that a Railway Byelaw for ticketing is strict liability, meaning there's very little one can do you be found not guilty of such an offence (either you had a ticket, or you didn't...).

 

From what I've read here in this thread,

the train company aren't showing their hand with respect of which offence they'd charge you with.

If it's a Railway Byelaw, you'll receive a fine at court which is means tested,

but typically 200GBP plus costs and surcharge (total equates to around the 300GBP mark usually, but as I said, if you can't afford it judging by your means form, you'll get a lesser fine etc.).

You won't receive a criminal record that is recorded, for a Byelaw conviction either.

 

If you're prosecuted under the Regulation of Railways Act 1889 however, the fine is typically 400GBP plus all associated costs etc equating to nearer 600 or 700GBP sometimes.

This also means a recorded conviction on the Police computer.

 

I do believe some DBS checks also show non-recordable convictions,

so if convicted of either and asked to declare for work vetting or similar, you'd be best off being up-front.

 

That's all I can say without knowing for sure what the charge is I'm afraid,

but I would NOT enlist a solicitor, especially not at that price.

 

I have to say I do think the ball is very much in their court I'm afraid, but try not to panic.

And remember, even if you're summonsed, you can offer to settle right up to and including the court date.

 

They don't have to accept, but there's nothing that shows more remorse than showing up at court, smartly dressed, with your chequebook.

 

I will have another look at this thread later when I have more time as I'm pushed at the moment,

just in case I've been a numpty and misread anything.

[Shaunartis]

Hi there i have recieved my second response from TIL ,

 

not good news

 

they said they see no reason why they should not proceed with court action and a summons will be issued soon.

 

Any one got any advice on what to do next ..

 

Or should i just take this one on the chin and wait for a court date

 

many thanks in advance

 

Shaun

[dx100uk]

urm...

you have apologised for blatantly lying to the ticket clerk?

 

I cant see you have

they are fishing for you to do something.

 

you can still try till the day and even in court or outside it to settle...

 

why are they being so stubbornnnn.....

[honeybee13]

Don't give up, you can negotiate up to and including the court date.

 

You need to decide what to say, we'll help.

 

HB

[Shaunartis]

I have said so far

that i know i was in the wrong etc ,

i know how much fair evasion costs transport companies and

i respect the current legislations that are in place and

i have apologised for my actions and

said it would not happen again and

that i am willing to pay any cost that they deem fit to avoid a criminal record as it would affect my future employment as i am currently studying an engineering course .

 

 

Has anyone else got any ideas on what i could say to persuade them for an out of court settlement

 

Thanks once again in advance

[Shaunartis]

Do you think ti would be worth maybe giving them a ring and trying to settle it over the telephone ?