Park Watch (Defence Systems ltd) /Gladstone claimform - PCN - Now £234.87

[kkkoyes]

Hi

 

I have received a claim form with a stamp and the county court address on there.

It says on the back of the letter

- Do not ignore this claim form

- if you do nothing judgement may be entered against you without further notice.

 

This will make it difficult for you to get credit.

 

Included in the pack are

 

• Admission Form N9A
• Defence and Counterclaim Forrm N9B
• Acknowledgement of service

 

 

The top two are options are self explanatory i believe

 

it does state the following under the 'acknowledgement of service' option:

If you file an acknowledgement of service but do not file a defence within 2 days of service of the claim form,

or particulars of claim if served separately, judgement may be entered against you.

 

If you do not file an application within 14 days of the date of filing this acknowledgement of service,

it will be assumed that you accept the court's jurisdiction and judgement may be entered against you.

 

I can recall this relates to when they claim I had stopped in a no stopping zone at one stop shopping centre in Perry Barr Birmingham.

 

I was totally unaware of this till i recieved the letter and it was asking for £100!

On recollection i had parked next to where all the taxis park, so my mother could run to the cash point.

I was in my car at all times and my engine was on

- she was back in my car in two minutes and i was out o there.

There was no obstruction caused and i even doubt i crossed the line where the cross hatches begin

- probably only to turn around and get out of there!

 

Naturally i have been ignoring their demands and have not sent them anything,

but upon receiving this now i am concerned as to what it is?

Am i being taken to court?

will i get a CCJ? and

do i need to respond?

what is my best course of action?

 

Hoping somebody can advise me please.

Many many thanks

 

 

 

[kkkoyes]

Name of the Claimant? DEFENCE SYSTEMS LTD T/A PARK WATCH

Date of issue? 15 June 2016

Particulars of the claim?

 

 

Date 22/07/15 Description: XXXX(My Reg and ref no.) Amount £150 Due Date 19/08/2016. Total due - £150.

AND THE CLAIMANT CLAIMS

The Claimant claims the sum of £159.87 for Parking charges and indemnity costs if applicable

including £9.87 interest pursuant to S.69 of the County COurt Act 1984 Rate 8.00% pa

from dates above to 14/06/16.

Same rate to judgement or (sooner) payment.

Daily rate to judgement £0.03

Total debt and interest £159.87

 

What is the value of the claim? Amount claimed: : £234.97

Has the claim been issued by the original creditor

or was the account assigned and it is the Debt purchaser who has issued the claim? DEFENCE SYSTEMS LTD T/A PARK WATCH

Were you aware the account had been assigned – did you receive a Notice of Assignment? N/A

 

On reading the link also I understand the next best step is for me to complete the acknowledgement of service.

Do i need to state my defence at this point?

 

dx100uk Thanks for directing me to the correct area,

as i'm new here unsure of the processes

I have looked at the link and filled in the Q&A below:

 

At what point would i state a defence, and what would you advise me to put in this defence?

 

Many thanks, again

 

THANK YOU dx100uk

 

I have listened to your instructions and provided the acknowledgement online just as you have stated.

This has now been submitted.

So i now have 28 days to respond ?

I have stated that I am the defendant

 

Look forward to guidance on next steps!

 

Many thanks

[dx100uk]

defence will be due, and can again be done online too , 4pm Friday 15th july

 

 

we will help with that.

await further help from the knowledgeable ones

 

 

dx

[ericsbrother]

One of their problems is that if you are banned from doing something it is not a contractual obligation.

 

 

It appears as though they are doing the usual send out the claim

and we will provide the details of what it is for later

(we think they will pay up and we wont have to think of an excuse).

 

 

This is an abuse of process but that wont win you any prizes for pointing it out

but it will make their claim harder to satisfy a judge they have "clean hands".

 

If it is local to you get down there and photograph the signs and I reckon this will be easy to defend

as signs that say you cant do something are not contracts

but create a trespass and the parking co cannot sue you for that.

[kkkoyes]

Thanks for your response @ericsbrother

 

i am starting to understand what you are explaining,

it seems by law they do not have the right to suggest I have agreed to this "contract"

and thus accept the "fine" that they are now trying to take me to court for.

 

If my understanding of this is correct, then it certainly makes me feel a little better.

 

On doing some further research it appears a couple of other people have had the same issue at that location

and the threads for these are:

 

http://www.consumeractiongroup.co.uk/forum/showthread.php?425697-parking-ticket-private-land-1-stop-shoppin-centre-perry-barr/page2

 

and

 

https://cse.google.co.uk/cse?cx=partner-pub-0964707606882478:652l7hswbgv&ie=UTF-8&q=showthread.php%3F400956&sa=Search+CAG#gsc.tab=0&gsc.q=showthread.php%3F400956&gsc.page=1

 

Although these threads provide some insight

- i would appreciate, in layman terms,

some advice and how to file a defence and if somebody could advise how best to word this?

 

It is not even 'no parking'

- the area enforced is for 'no stopping'

and it is by camera that they catch people and do not leave a ticket.

 

 

This is private land

- i would assume and the red cross hatches are merely 'graffiti'.

 

 

However without getting too technical on the principles of the law behind this

- could somebody advise a best response for this?

what would you say?

 

i will post images of the signs as soon as i can.

 

thank you to this knowledgeable forum

[ericsbrother]

the paintwork means nothing in law

but a judge will look at where it is,

why it is there and

what alternatives are offered

so no parking yellow paint outside a fire exit

will be more likely to land you in hot water

than random cross hatchings in red paint in the middle of nowhere

especially as there isnt a comparotor for such paint jobs in the highway code

( that would be an ACOP to compare with).

 

What to say?

for the moment just respond to the acknowledgement of service

and tick box saying you intend to defend in full.

 

Dont accept mediation and you then buy yourself another fortnight to get a skeleton defence in.

 

Tis will be based around this discussion

and they may well decide not to pay the allocation fee for court

(it will be at your local county court)

 

when they see you arent going to roll over.

75% of the people who get an N1 will just pay up and grumble afterwards

so the parking co and their lawyers make money from them by hiking the supposed costs they would never get in a defended claim.

 

Most of the parking co's then have to think very carefully about whetehr they proceed with the defended ones and the skeleton defence will be a major consideration

 

as they will ahve to spend good money on preparing papers and presenting and stand a very good chance of having to pay the defendants costs when they lose as well as destroying the chances of ever suing for the same thing again at the relevant site.

 

county court judgements dont set case law but the law likes precedents so win one and you can quote it and it will have to be considered.

 

the law says that if there is a case precedent then it has to be considered or the judge gets into very big trouble (they may not agree that it is relevant but they cannot ignore it). In short, we have other cases to quote and that will be a very strong point to make.

[kkkoyes]

hey ericbro

thought i had replied to this, but it does not seem to have come through!

 

i was just saying thanks for that clarity and offer of support it's really appreciated:-)

 

I wonder if any others on here have had any experience with park watch /defence systems

who can give an indication of what defence they used and the outcomes?

 

 

I can't be the only one they caught out with this...

. but couldn't see on any of the previous threads on what the outcomes were!

 

Your post has helped my understanding in this matter greatly and is very plain and logical.

It seems they are testing us with this, to see if we roll over but i would rather not be in that 75% of people who do not fight.

 

 

i'm ready to challenge with the support of this forum so hope we can get a positive outcome.

it's reassuring to know there are cases that can be quoted that you're aware of which i'm sure will be helpful.

 

I wonder what the next step is?

They have not offered mediation thus far - is this normal?

 

 

And also how is the defence submitted - does this get submitted online too..?

 

I was looking at the post from andyorch on showthread.php?465231 which has a template for defence.

I understand this is for PE so not sure how much of it we can use or what bits to include/exclude.

 

Many thanks, again

[kkkoyes]

hey knowledgeable ones

 

i am concerned the deadline for submission of defence is fast approaching. can anyone give some advice or help me out with what to say please

 

many thanks

k

[dx100uk]

post 6 referes.

 

have a go

read eb's posts here. too

 

post it up

 

dx

[ericsbrother]

so, skeleton defence.

No contract created so there cannot be a claim for breach of contract or for any monies due as a contractual sum.

case refs PCM v B, W and L at High Wycome CC

 

Everything else can be added later, when you have to exchange evidence packs and statements. It shouldnt get that far unless Gladdys want to lose but there again it is their clients money they are burning

[silverfox1961]

I would like to know why Park watch are using Gladstones? They usually represent their own members and Park watch are BPA. I appreciate that companies can use whomever they choose but Gladstones!!!

Scraping and barrel come to mind!

[ericsbrother]

I suspect that Gladdys are on a recruitment drive and hope that this will impress the BPA members. they wont be that impreseed when all of these claims get to the front of the queue and they lose the defended ones on very basic and obvious grounds. I also suspect that Gladdys are doing the work on a contingency fee basis, which runs very close to being accused of Champerty and maintenance.

[kkkoyes]

hey guys

it has been some time since my last post and ack of service was submitted. the case has now moved on so please see update below of what has happened:

 

 

Email from Gladstones solicitors dated 28 july:

 

"Defence Systems Ltd t/a Park Watch

-v-

XXXXX

 

We act for the Claimant and have notified the Court of our Client’s intention to proceed with the claim.

 

Please find enclosed a copy of our Client’s completed Directions Questionnaire, which will be filed with the court upon their request. You will note we intend to request a special direction that the case be dealt with on the papers and without the need for an oral hearing

 

This request is sought simply because the matter is in our Client’s opinion relatively straightforward and the costs incurred by both parties for attending an oral hearing would be disproportionate. We trust you agree.

 

You will note our Client has elected not to mediate. Its decision is not meant to be in any way obstructive and is based purely on experience, as mediation has rarely proven beneficial in these types of cases. Notwithstanding this, our Client would be happy to listen to any genuine payment proposals that you wish to put forward."

 

The attached special direction simply states

"REQUEST FOR SPECIAL DIRECTION

The matter will be considered on paperwork without a hearing. The parties attendance is not required and the Judge will determine the matter based upon the documents and evidence supplied and any written representations received."

 

The next attachment is the court form N180 - Directions Questionnaire (Small Claims Track) - with special directions.pdf. In this i have summarised what is said:

 

A1 -In this they have marked NO under if they agree for the case to be transferred to the Small Claims Mediation Service

C1 - they have agreed that the Small Claims Track is the appropriate track for this case

D1 - About the hearing. At which County Court hearing centre would you prefer the small claims hearing to take place and why. They have put **SEE REQUEST FOR SPECIAL DIRECTION**

If the Defendant does not consent to the special direction then we request the claim be transferred to the Claimant's home court.

D2 - Are you asking for the court’s permission to use the written evidence of an expert? they have marked NO

D3 - How many witnesses, including yourself, will give evidence on your behalf at the hearing? 1

D4 - Dates the expert/witness won't be available (they haven't put any)

 

I have also received the same blank form accompanied with a letter from the Courty Court dated 4 August 2016. In the first page it states:

 

"TAKE NOTICE THAT

1. This is a defended claim.

The Defendant has filed a defence.

2. It appears that this case is suitable for allocation to the small claims track.

If you believe this is not the appropriate track for the claims, you must complete box C1 on the Small Claims Directions Questionnaire (Form N180) and explain why.

3. You must by 22 August 2016 complete the Small Claims Directions Questionnaire (Form N180) and file it with the due court office. [Address is Northampton] and serve copies on all other parties.

 

Enclosed is the blank N180 form for me to complete. Also some guidance documents about the mediation service.

 

Please could I ask for some advice on how best to respond. I know the response to the N180 must be received as the court has ordered by 22 August. Also it appears this is now likely to go to court/or considered in writing. Look forward to your comments and advice on how best to proceed.

 

Many thanks

K

Edited August 13, 2016 by kkkoyes

[ericsbrother]

You dont want mediation and you dont want a paper hearing as this allows the claimant to write things that are assertions rather than the whole truth, which tends to come out under cross-examination.

 

 

Things like not having planning permission for their signs and them saying they dont need it when they do.

 

They also want this so you cannot question their inflated costs and supposed extra contractual amounts added after the event which are not contractual at all as it is a breach of contract they are claiming for..

 

you ask for hearing at local county court.

this means they will have to pay someone to turn up and that person will probably have no real interest in the case being a local solicitor rather than anyone from Park Watch or Gladstones.

 

 

If Gladdys do turn up you can question them about the arrangement between them, this claim, the IPC and how they are being paid as there is a stink of Champerty and maintenance about all of these Gladstones/BE legal and MIL cases (that means they are pursuing the matter and taking a cut from the winnings rather than being paid to represent)

[kkkoyes]

Hi thanks for the response ericbro what reason shall I give for not wanting the paper hearing? If I say no it asks

"If no, say why not and state the track to which you believe it should be allocated"

Many thanks

K

[dx100uk]

to put the claimant to strict proof under cross-examination

small claims track

[ericsbrother]

track- small claims procedure will be cheapest and limit the amount either side ends up paying when they lose.

If you are very rich go for multitrack and hire a QC- job done.

 

They want a paper hearing so you cannot see them telling fibs or question who has signed their authority,

also it means they dont have to pay you for a day out in a smelly concrete block when they lose.

 

Sensible for them as they know that the chances of winning a defended claim are acually quite low for them,

the idea of suing you was to get you to poo your pants when you got the claim and send them a cheque,

not fight it

 

so you may see them drop it before the hearing date anyway just as a stop loss.

 

if they do ask for aggravated costs under CPR 27

[kkkoyes]

Hey everyone

 

Just wanted to say BIG THANKS for your help so far. I have submitted the form to request the small claims track as advised.

 

UPDATE: letter from court dated 30 August 2016

 

The claim has been transferred to the below County Court Hearing Centre for allocation. On receipt the file will be referred to a procedural judge who will allocate the claim to track and give case management directions. Details of the judge's directions will be sent to you in notice of allocation. ... Please await the Judge's directions. And the contact details are: County Court at Birmingham (127)

 

does this mean just waiting for them to decide and they will provide a date of the hearing.

- could not believe would be going to court to fight this

- but i suppose somethings have to be done!

and eventually justice will prevail

[ericsbrother]

yes,

now did you ask Gladdys for proof of contract between landowner and Park watch and proof of planning consent for their signs?

If so, send a letter to court saying that they have failed to show cause for action and locus standi by way of CPR 31.14 request and that the particulars of claim fail to meet the requirements of CPR16.4 and you therefore ask that the claim be struck out for this reason.

 

You may get a claims management order or even a hearing and if they failt o produce the goods you can be certain it will stop at that point.

[kkkoyes]

I haven't written to Gladdy's or Defence Watch or anything yet, but this is something i would like to do.

 

So is this is a good point in the process to do this - I have their contact details.

 

Thank you very much for this advice - I will write to them now!

 

Will update the forum on what their response is

- Should I also send a copy to the court or is that not necessary

[ericsbrother]

write to Gladdys,

the CPR request is on almost every thread where legal action has been started.

 

As you havent done this already you cant complain to court so you will have to wait for them to not respond and then slap in a complaint

 

Read all the other posts, we keep repeating ourselves when people should be helping themselves more.

[kkkoyes]

Hi ericbro- thanks for the info.

Please forgive my naivety as this is the first time i have dealt with something like this so it's all new territory!

 

 

I have taken your advice and used a template letter on the form for the "CPR" - and sent this to them.

 

 

Copy of which is below:

 

Dear Sir or Madam,

 

RE: Defence Systems Ltd t/a Park Watch v XXXXX Case No: XXXXX

 

CPR 31.14 Request

 

On 10th June 2016 I received the claim form in this case issued by you out of the Northampton county court business centre.

 

I confirm having returned my acknowledgement of service to the court in which I indicate my intention to contest and counter claim all of your claim.

 

Please treat this letter as my request made under CPR 31.14 for the disclosure and the production of a verified and legible copy of [each of the following / the] document(s) mentioned in your Particulars of Claim:

 

1. Proof of assignment from the land owner to create contracts and make claims in your own name.

 

2. Proof of planning permission granted for signage and the painted cross hatches under the Town and Country Planning Act 2007

You should ensure compliance with your CPR 31 duties and ensure that the document(s) I have requested are disclosed at your earliest convenience.

 

Your CPR 31 duties extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for the originals of the documents I have requested, the better for you to be able to verify the document's authenticity and to provide me with a legible copy.

 

Further, where I have requested a copy of a document, the original of which is now in the possession of another person, you will have a right to possession of that document if you have mentioned it in your case. You must take immediate steps to recover and preserve it for the purpose of this case.

 

Where I have mentioned a document and there is in your possession more than one version of that same document owing to a modification, obliteration or other marking or feature, each version will be a separate document and you must provide a copy of each version of it to me. Your obligations extend to making a reasonable and proportionate search for any version(s) to include an obligation to recover and preserve such version(s) which are now in the possession of a third party.

 

In accordance with CPR 31.15© I undertake to be responsible for your reasonable copying costs incurred in complying with this CPR 31.14 request.

 

If you are unable to comply with this request and believe that you will never be able to comply with this request please confirm in your response.

Yours faithfully XXXXX

 

Hope that's ok. Will keep you all updated..

 

 

many thanks, as always

[silverfox1961]

Hi

If you are NOT making a counter claim and only defending the case, the counter claim part needs removing.

 

Chances are that Gladstones will completely ignore you or refuse to supply. Be aware that when you attend court, the claimants solicitor for hire may try to give you papers they want to use in the case. You shouldn't accept them and report it to the judge when convenient.

[ericsbrother]

Gladdys and BW have been losing claims because they are not CPR16.4 complaint- basically they dont spell out what it is all about in the original Particulars of Claim and thus cannot show a cause for action. This is done because they cut and paste it all to save time and money. Not worth their while to do everything by hand. Read other posts as to why this may be

[kkkoyes]

Hey guys

 

It's been some time since i posted so can i let you know of the progress now.

 

To be quite honest I am really quite concerned as at first I wasnt expecting it to get to this stage!

 

they have set the court date as 17 January in Birmingham.

This is only two weeks away and I little idea what to do or say!?!!

 

As the date approaches my confidence has been diminishing day by day so any detailed advice you guys can offer me would be much appreciated.

 

I have submitted the skeleton defence as mentioned previously and all previous steps that i've talked about on this thread but now its crunch time:|

 

Please can i ask for some guidance and help of how to tackle this.

Obviously going up against Gladstones and these are legal professionals

so i'm already the underdog and having not been at court ever before like this not even sure how it goes.

 

I also notice they want any witness statement or documents i will be relying on to be sent 14 days before the date of the hearing which isnt very long away at all.

 

Will i be relying on any documents?

 

Some questions i have in my head are:

 

What main line of defence should i go for?

 

Will they be asking for admission of driver?

as this has not been indicated yet?

can they get the registered keeper (me)

 

Should i mention no contract formed?

signage?

who is landowner?

They have not provided me with this.

 

I am aware of the above possible defences but not sure how to put the arguemnt across effectively in what order and what time.

 

[removed] - dx

 

Bottom line was they are trying to claim this money for an apparent "stopping" in an area of land they have designated as "no stopping zone" .

 

I have not divulged yet as to whether i was stopping and if so the reasons for this

- as i was yet unsure of their legal right to even claim for this

 

secondly waiting for correct legal advice as to which would be the best legal position for me to take as defendant

 

Gladstones did respond via email to my previous letter which was requesting information from them under CPR 31.14

 

Their response was as follows: Part 31 Requests do not apply to the Small Claims Track.