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Hoist/? claimform - old Barclaycard 'debt'***Claim Discontinued***

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ok thankyou i thought wrongly?

that once you entered mediation you was admitting that the debt was infact yours and was agreeing on a way for it to be paid as thats what the paperwork seems to imply

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time to go read some threads ...eh?

which is what you should have been doing..

get upto speed

and whats next

1000's here already


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yep ur right lots of threads so many it starts becoming a blur plus some contradict each other so might always be giving the right advice but will go look again

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well you appear to be reading the thread on claims from these fleecers that are already in front of you in the proceeding

and I cant see any here that have ever said what you are thinking...

 

 

dx


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we all read stuff or take in in differently

i am terrible for it

is why i come looking for answers and extremely greatful for the advice and info given as i am so out of my depth on this that it gives me headache over worrying.

 

 

..i know prob no need as you have seen so many of these now its like second nature but to be its quite daunting ..

 

i wanted to ask

as i noticed hoist have updated my credit file to show the new amount thats outstanding as that they have made a claim for

 

 

can they do that as a court hasnt said yes thats what owed yet?

seems cheeky

 

 

some of the questions i ask is because i am looking for forward to what might happen

so i can try work out what cause of action to take..

 

 

i went look over some sites on mediaction

i have a better understanding on how that works now

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they can add what they like

doesn't change your file

 

 

if they cant prove their claim its dead.

 

 

mediation [as on that form..

ask several questions

and various stage in UNTIL the actual mediation call

to date you've received NONE of the required paperwork.

so for now you say YES to mediation

yes you have the required paperwork

as mediation is about negotiating before the / if it goes to court

 

 

so to be fair you say yes

giving them time to supply it

WHEN it comes around to the mediation service RINGING YOU

to arrange the call/date

they will ask the SAME QUESTIONS

on the paper N180

have you received all the required paperwork..

you then say NO

 

 

mediation will fail


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Thankyou dx100uk for your time

i know it cant be easy when you get the same dumb questions lol

 

 

i am glad you said they will ask if i have all the required paperwork as it didnt ask that on the directions questionaire

 

 

letting someone know that they hadnt sent anything was what was bugging me

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I know what I said

you don't need to keep repeating peoples posts when you post

 

simply type in the box

 

removed it

 

dx


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I had another claim come through for the other barclaycard account that is under my name should i start another thread or do it on this one? i have already sent a cca and cpr request off last week just need to sort the def part out

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Separate thread please...difficult following one agreement per thread.

 

Regards

 

Andy


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Finally had the missing credit agreement turn up today with a couple copys of i think old statements

still had nothing from cohen .

 

 

..the agreement is a unsigned one

also lists current address as the one for the terms and conditions and not the one i lived at when the agreement was taken out again not sure if that even matters

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Reconstituted version I assume...desperation by the claimant...no use for enforcement purposes......

 

When did you enter into the original agreement before or after 2007? around 2002 i believe

 

Regards

 

Andy


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yes andy was around 2002 the debt would go statue barred this year if i could hold out lol and yes reconstituted but from what i have read creditors no longer need a signed document seems to be a lot people losing in court when all they have to rely on is the creditor cant find the original agreement ?

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A reconstituted version has to be accurate to enforce.....this has the wrong address on......invalid.

 

The debt wont become statute barred ..the claim form stopped the clock.

 

Andy


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bugger thought only a ccj stopped the clock

..so the agreement has to have the original address ?

doesnt matter if i still had the account when i moved ?

 

i just looked over the whole agreement on the page that just has the words your right to cancel

 

it has my original address but that is all that page has on it

a box in the middle with the words right to cancel once you have signed this agreement you will have for a short time a right to cancel exact details of how to do this will be sent to you by us..

 

on the next two pages its a scanned copy of a unsigned agreement which isnt readable to blurred on the next page it is a better copy of barclaycard conditions and says in the first pargraph

 

there are the terms and conditions of an agreement between us (barclay bank plc) and you J BLOGGS of 11a indebt drive earth

 

that is my current address and not the address i was at when i took out the alleged agreement also the interest rate is wrong back in 2009

 

the copy of statement they also sent shows a purchase rate of 1.240 %

but the apr on the conditions has it at standard rate of 15.90%pa

not even sure that makes any difference at all just trying to be as accurate as possible

 

i cant prove it but the orginal apr was 12.9% just for information

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When providing a copy of an executed agreement in response to a request under section 78(1) of the Act:

 

a. must a creditor provide a photocopy (or other form of complete copy) of the original agreement that was signed by the debtor or at least provide a copy which is derived directly from the original agreement or complete copy thereof? or

b. can a creditor provide a document which is a reconstitution of the original agreement which may be from sources other than the actual signed agreement itself?

 

It was held that a creditor can satisfy its duty under section 78 by providing a reconstituted version of the executed agreement which may be from sources other than the actual signed agreement itself.

The judge accepted that as a matter of law, section 78 does not itself require any particular explanation as to how the copy was made. However, as a matter of good practice and so as not to mislead the debtor, it is desirable that the creditor should explain that it is providing a reconstituted as opposed to a physical copy of the executed agreement. This will also explain why the copy might otherwise look a little odd. The creditor can also explain in the letter that this procedure is satisfactory under the Act.

 

The judge also provided that the following information needs to be included in the reconstituted copy agreement (assuming of course that it was present in the original):

 

1. Heading: Credit Agreement regulated by the Consumer Credit Act 1974

2. Name and address of the debtor

3. Name and address of the creditor

4. Cancellation clause applicable to the executed agreement.

 

All of the above may be provided on a sheet which is separate from the full statement of terms and conditions which also forms part of the reconstituted agreement. The creditor may, however, decide to reconstitute the agreement in a different way so that, for example, the information above is populated electronically onto the same sheet as that which sets out the terms and conditions, or some of them. The judge stated that he did not intend to prescribe the precise form of the reconstituted agreement. The key point is what information it should contain, subject to the point that its format should not be such as to mislead the debtor as to what he agreed to.

 

The judge also considered whether a statement like the one appearing in the reconstructed application form in Carey referring to the agreement to the terms and conditions "attached" needs to be included in the reconstituted copy. Alternatively if the application form had said "I agree to the terms overleaf", should that statement be included. The judge held that this aspect of the form is not necessary for the purpose of the section 78 copy, although there is nothing to stop a bank from putting it in or indeed from furnishing a copy of the type of application form or signature page that the debtor would have signed, as some banks have done.

 

The statement referring to terms and conditions is not itself prescribed information and the supply of the terms and conditions which were applicable at the time will tell the debtor what he needs to know in terms of the content of what he signed up to, including the presence (or otherwise) of the prescribed terms.

 

In practical terms what this is likely to mean is that if the creditor chooses to use as the section 78 copy the section 63 copy, which would have been provided to that particular debtor at the time following execution of the agreement, this will be sufficient provided that the information referred to above is supplied. This exercise is not a mere formality. The creditor will need to check carefully that the details of the debtor at the time are correct and that those are the particular terms (including prescribed terms) that he/she agreed to. This is to ensure that it is an honest and accurate copy.

 

Must a creditor provide a document which would comply (if signed) with the requirements of the Consumer Credit (Agreements) Regulations 1983 (Regulations) as to form, as at the date the agreement was made in order to comply with section 78?

 

A creditor need not, in complying with section 78, provide a document which would comply (if signed) with the requirements of the Regulations as to form, as at the date the agreement was made.

 

Must the copy provided under section 78 include the debtor's name and address as at the date when the agreement was made, and if so in what form?

 

The section 78 copy must contain the name and address of the debtor as it was at the time of the execution of the agreement. But the creditor can provide the name and address from whatever source it has of those details. It does not have to take them from the executed agreement itself.

 

Issue 2

 

If an agreement has been varied by the creditor under a unilateral power of variation, is a copy of the executed agreement as varied, a sufficient copy for the purposes of section 78(1), or must the creditor provide a copy of the original agreement as well?

 

If an agreement has been varied by the creditor under a unilateral power of variation, the creditor must still provide a copy of the original agreement, as well as the varied terms.

 

Issue 3

 

Does a creditor's breach of section 78(1) of itself give rise to an unfair relationship within the meaning of section 140A of the Act?

If a creditor is in breach of section 78 this does not of itself give rise to an unfair relationship within the meaning of section 140A.

 

Issue 4

 

If there is a breach of section 78(1), is that sufficient without more to make a declaration to that effect appropriate, in particular:

a. where the creditor admits the breach but did not admit it before the issue of proceedings?

b. where the creditor denies or does not admit the breach?

 

A court has jurisdiction to declare whether in a particular case there has been a breach of section 78. Whether it will be appropriate to grant such a declaration depends on the circumstances of that case. If there are proceedings on foot and within them the creditor formally admits non-compliance with section 78, there is no point in maintaining the proceedings just to obtain a declaration to that effect.

 

Issue 5

 

Does the document signed by the debtor contain the prescribed terms for the purposes of section 61 and/or section 127(3) if:

 

a. they are on a sheet which is referred to on the piece of paper that was signed by the debtor; or

b. that sheet is attached to the piece of paper signed by the debtor; or

c. that sheet is separate from but was supplied with the piece of paper signed by the debtor?

 

The judge held that in assessing whether prescribed terms are "contained" in an executed agreement the following principles are relevant:

 

• it is not sufficient for the piece of paper signed by the debtor merely to cross-refer to the prescribed terms without a copy of those terms being supplied to the debtor at the point of signature

• a document need not be a single piece of paper

• whether several pieces of paper constitute one document is a question of substance not form. In particular a physical connection between several pieces of paper is not necessary in order for them to constitute one document

• a physical connection (or one or more physical connections) between several pieces of paper does not necessarily constitute them as one document

• where the debtor's signature and the prescribed terms appear on separate pieces of paper, the questions of whether those pieces of paper together constitute one document is a question of substance and not form.

 

He added that he would not seek to answer the questions in issue 5 in their current state because the scenarios postulated all require some further elaboration before a simple "yes" or "no" answer can be given.

 

Issue 6

 

If it were not established, at trial, that there was a document signed by the debtor containing the prescribed terms, would that of itself entail an unfair relationship?

 

The judge held that the answer to the question was no.

 

The applications

 

The second matter in Carey (which consisted of a number of cases heard together) was the application by two of the defendant banks to dismiss certain claims brought against them.

The judge held that claims that there was an unfair relationship and an improperly executed agreement in Adris v The Royal Bank of Scotland Plc should be struck out or dismissed. The claim that there was an improperly executed agreement in Yunis v Barclays Bank Plc should also be struck out or dismissed. The absence of any positive pleaded case or evidence as to the circumstances of the making of the agreement by the debtor concerned was fatal to the claims. The absence of any positive plea or evidence as to particular facts relied upon in support of the unfair relationship claim, other than failure to provide a section 78 copy, was fatal to that claim.

 

Comment

 

This is a helpful judgment for lenders which provides some much needed guidance that will narrow or eliminate the issues arising in the hundreds of other similar claims issued in county courts around the country, many of which have been stayed pending the outcome of this judgment.

 

On a practical level, given the number of requests received, lenders will particularly welcome the finding that a creditor can satisfy its duty under section 78 of the Act by providing a reconstituted version of the executed agreement which may be from sources other than the actual signed agreement itself. The real impact here is that it will deter borrowers arguments that the agreement is unenforceable without a copy of the original signed agreement.

 

In light of this decision, and as acknowledged by the judge, it now seems likely that the number of challenges about section 78 copies will diminish significantly because:

 

• it should now be clear what will count and not count as a section 78 copy.

• of the decision in Phillip McGuffick v The Royal Bank of Scotland Plc to the effect that a section 78 breach does not remove any underlying liability from the debtor and does not stop the creditor from referring the debtor's debt to a Credit Reference Agency. Many of the cases had been started before McGuffick had been decided.

• a section 78 breach does not necessarily generate an unfair relationship.

• absent any positive allegation of improper execution, a claim to that effect based solely on the absence of or defect in a section 78 copy will not succeed.

• the cases tend to show that given time, creditors are usually able to supply a conforming section 78 copy even if not within the prescribed 12 working days. Provided that the creditor makes it clear that it accepts that the agreement is unenforceable pending compliance with section 78, there is nothing further which the debtor needs to do at that time.


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And I bet the stuff you've been sent is the 620000 rubbish...


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i read the above but honestly the more i read the more confused i got but seeing they did put my original address on a sheet of paper they covered their ass on that one the rest you might aswell have spoken russian could not get my head around if what they have sent me would be a proper version of the agreement

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Best thing is ...scan a copy and post it up as a pdf


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I think i have managed to scan and merge each file into a pdf a couple pages are blurry thats just how they are i have also removed anything to idenify me i think

 

hope this is worked right

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attach the file then..

read the upload


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haha as we guessed

std 620000 rubbish they roll out for every claim.

 

and for a 2010 agreement your was years before?


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yeah agreement would of been around 2002

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so what now ? any fault in what they sent me anything i can use or i am just waiting till a judgement is found against me as i have the other thread following this route

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