lukeyboy1 vs Clydesdale PPI: Ombudsman upheld complaint ***Success ***

[lukeyboy1]

(btw donation made already, thanks for all the help so far).

 

Do I call the ombudsman, or call the bank directly, do you think?

[lukeyboy1]

Letter sent recently to them asking for some clarification :-

 

Thank you for your letter of 24th March detailing the Bank’s offer in relation to Payment Protection Insurance (PPI).

 

I had a few questions in relation to this offer, and these are as follows :-

 

1. I would reasonably have expected there to be some compensatory element (outside of the standard 8% interest), as a good will gesture, bearing in mind that this matter has been on-going since 2013.

 

2. Re: Sum of GBP 5,183.25 – total associated interest in respect of premiums plus charges.

 

 

Could you please confirm the basis of the calculation of this interest, as it doesn’t make sense to me.

 

 

As I understand it, since I’ve effectively been charged this interest at the prevailing credit card rate, it seems that this rate isn’t reflective of interest potentially paid on a total sum of Premiums plus Charges of GBP 5,169.31

(made up of the sum of 3751.19 PPI premiums plus 1418.12 charges refunded).

 

3. Finally

– could you confirm that the bank loan that was taken out in early 1997 had no PPI element associated with this

– I assume that this was already assessed as a part of this complaint.

 

Finally,

please note that I’m not a UK tax payer,

therefore any payment should be made to me without any UK tax deducted.

 

 

I enclose both details of my non-UK tax coding

and also a recent utility bill to demonstrate that I’m indeed resident outside of the UK for tax purposes.

 

Yours Faithfully,

[lukeyboy1]

FosRunningPPI v102 - june 2016 - csa forum.xls

 

At last i managed to get all statements back from Clydesdale Bank, and I've managed to complete the FOS running PPI sheet from the balances and payments made. I dropped the following line to the ombudsman today (and will also do the same to the clydesdale bank) :-

 

(BTW - I just filled out the balances and PPI paid in each column, rather than adding payments plus total spend, as it was taking too long, but the sheet works all the same!).

 

------------------------------------------------------

 

Dear Sir,

 

Many Thanks for your update.

 

I have now received all statements from October 2000 onwards for my Clydesdale Credit Card, and I’ve been able to almost fully reconstruct my account with the help of the FOS Running PPI Calculator (as found on the consumer action forum website - which I believe is the “de-facto” standard for calculating awards where statements are known).

 

NOTE:

 

1. All balances and payments from October 2000 are correct from Statements supplied by Clydesdale Bank Plc

2. I have reconstructed my account from 1997 -> 2000 with best guesses of my account balances (as Clydesdale Bank would have done),

3. I have also estimated the card interest at around 16.9% APR (from what I can see, this seems like a reasonable guess of the “average rate”, since it seems to have moved between 15.9 -> 19.9% over the time I’ve had the card).

 

Given that this uses real data, my estimate for PPI redress is as follows (ONLY for PPI - not covering charges refunds which are addressed by Clydesdale Separately)

 

PPI Charges: 4320.97

Compound Interest: 26,137.28

8% Simple Interest on Credit Balance: 10,735.86

Total: 41,194.10

 

I enclose my spreadsheet for your convenience (I’ve filled all balances and PPI payments, with A denoting actual as per statements) - and this may assist when communicating with Clydesdale bank in this matter.

 

I would be interested in your views on this, but it seems that myself and Clydesdale are quite far apart in our calculations - all the more strange, since we both used Statement based data.

 

Yours Sincerely,

 

---------------------------------------------

[dx100uk]

Won't be£41k

 

Claim to date should be the last date they charged their int

Not today

[lukeyboy1]

Considering I've still got the credit card going, won't that be covered by the fos running sheet?

[dx100uk]

sorry so its still active?

[dx100uk]

yes I see you are

sorry was on a small screen.

 

 

£41k seems mighty high to me

 

 

dx

[lukeyboy1]

It seemed high to me,

 

I ran a balance on the card consistently for many many years

- I wasn't so good with finances when I was younger much to my embarrassment

 

- and I've checked and rechecked the sheet and it still comes back with this figure.

 

Mind you, at 14.9% Apr, the figure is closer to 30k or so!

[lukeyboy1]

FosRunningPPI v102 - june 2016 - csa forum.xls

 

Slight difference - last 3 rows counted when they shouldn't have :-

 

Figures are :-

 

PPI Premiums: 4320.97

Compound interest: 26137.28 (calcd at 16.9% APR)

8% Simple Interest: 9923.64

Total: 40381.88

 

(Fig at 15.9 is 35.5K and at 14.9 is 31K)

[lukeyboy1]

Okay - so had a call from the Ombudsman. They've got my spreadsheet and have asked Clydesdale for their calculations, and we'll see what happens.....hopefully they'll see mine as correct!

 

fingers crossed.....

[dx100uk]

[citizenB]

This sounds very promising, lukey. I will keep my fingers crossed your figures are accurate

[lukeyboy1]

I'm eager to see what might happen - but it may take some time to play out just yet.....

[lukeyboy1]

My latest update is that the ombudsman is talking to the clydesdale about how they're making their calculations. According to the ombudsman, this isn't *just* my offer, but affects a number of offers.

 

"Thanks for your email. I hope you are well.

 

I chased my colleagues for a response to your complaint on Tuesday and have been told that the talks are still ongoing.

 

I sincerely apologise for the delay. I do appreciate that it’s been going on longer than first expected, but please rest assured I’ll continue to chase this on a regular basis and will be in touch with you as soon as I have an update.

 

In the meantime, if there’s anything else that you need from me, please let me know."

 

Earlier they said the following :-

 

 

"At the moment we’re still clarifying Clydesdale’s approach to your calculation and as such, I’m unfortunately not able to comment on it exactly.

 

However, based on what I’ve seen so far, I think it’s unlikely that you’d have paid X in interest on £4320.97 of PPI premiums as I mentioned over the telephone.

 

Once we’ve clarified the business’ approach I’ll be in a better position to answer your questions, and I’ll certainly take into account what you’ve said below."

[dx100uk]

sounds promising

[lukeyboy1]

sounds promising

 

 

I certainly hope so! Difficult to know!

[lukeyboy1]

Status update - still waiting for word from the FOS - will give them another week and contact again - hopefully some resolution soon!

[mzfrfd]

Hi Lukeyboy1

 

Did you get a payout on this? I noticed you estimated your interest rate when you didnt have to. I hope you havent missed a trick here?

[mzfrfd]

Sorry, I have only joing CAG recently but if your interest rate went to 19.9% and was at that rate for a long time then wow, you very much could be losing out on a lot of money using the 16.9 average. Especially given that you have exact figures and exact interest rates on your statements....

 

I too have used the FosRunningPPI Spreadsheet and have modified it to account for 4 changes in interest rates over the period for which I am claiming. Am I too late with this advice?

[lukeyboy1]

Indeed. I've made this point on a number of occasions to the adjudicator, most recently saying this :-

 

-----

 

Hello Mr Brierley,

 

Thanks again for your time recently, and explaining the issues that are at hand.

 

As far as our conversation goes in regards to the calculation of compensation, I've spent some time checking my calculations, and also trying to arrive at the figure that the Clydesdale offered me.

 

From this work, I believe that the Clydesdale have calculated the sum of redress without taking into account that I've been running a balance on this credit card.

 

In other words, they have done the following :-

 

* Added up the PPI payments made, and given me 8% simple interest on these payments from 1997

 

* Reconstructed my account using these backdated sums and then paid me 8% simple interest on any credit balances that have occurred since then.

 

Using this method of calculation, I get the following approximate sums :-

 

A. PPI Paid : 4320.97 * Estimated figures from 1997 - Aug 2000, no statements *

 

B. 8% Interest on PPI Payments: 5865.85

 

C. 8% Simple Interest on Credit Balances: 3,280.77

 

D. Total : 13,467.58

 

As you can see, this is pretty close to the offer that they've made.

 

It is close enough, in fact, to lead me to believe that this is the basis of their calculation - I believe that their calculation is based on the assumption that the balance was paid off almost always.

 

 

 

So - why is there such a difference in calculations?

 

I believe that the issue is that, due to my running a balance on my credit card, I'd have mostly paid interest at the prevailing card rate of between 13.9% and 18.9% APR during this time on these PPI payments. These interest rates are as follows :-

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20010401003426/http://www.cbonline.co.uk/interest/596.html - 2001 - 18.9% APR

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20020805163725/http://www.cbonline.co.uk/personal/620.php - 2002 - 17.9 % APR

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20030212212759/http://www.cbonline.co.uk/personal/620.php - 2003 - 16.9% APR

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20040805094848/http://www.cbonline.co.uk/0,,40894,00.html - 2004 - 16.9% APR

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20050702090925/http://www.cbonline.co.uk/0,,40894,00.html - 2005 - 18.9% APR (1.463% per month)

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20060619180550/http://www.cbonline.co.uk/0,,40894,00.html - 2006 - 18.9% APR (1.463% per month)

 

....

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20070203065429/http://www.cbonline.co.uk/0,,40894,00.html - 2008 - 18.9 % APR (1.463% per month)

 

https://web.archive.org/web/20090318044936/http://cbonline.co.uk/personal/credit-cards/interest-rates-and-charges - 2009 - 19.9% APR

 

.....etc....

 

Therefore, since I was running a balance, I'd reasonably expect to be repaid the interest paid on my card at the prevailing rate --- rather than just 8% interest.

 

Furthermore, since I ran a balance on my card, I'd have likely paid compound interest on this amount, meaning that the compound interest I'd ended up paying on each PPI payment was undoubtedly higher.

 

As I had mentioned before, I have rejigged the spreadsheet to calculate interest paid at this rate, roughly speaking.

 

With this in mind, my figures (again roughly, since i don't have figures pre-sept-2000) are :-

 

A> PPI Paid: 4,320.97

 

B> Interest on PPI Payments: 30,657.50

 

C> 8% Simple Interest on Credit Balances: 11,268.29

 

D> Total: 46,156.76

 

(As I'd mentioned before, calculating the compound interest exactly is tough and can result in some variation, reflected in some figures previously - mostly down to assumptions on the prevailing rate).

 

For the reasons outlined above, I believe that my assertion is still valid that thelydesdale have offered me considerably less than I'm actually due.

 

I hope that this explanation of how I arrived at these figures makes sense.

 

----

[lukeyboy1]

- thanks for the input here. I'm told by the ombudsman that more talks are planned with the Clydesdale, and the adjudicator mentioned that these talks weren't just about my case but a number of them. This may be the root of those talks / or at least we can hope!

[lukeyboy1]

Hi Lukeyboy1

 

Did you get a payout on this? I noticed you estimated your interest rate when you didnt have to. I hope you havent missed a trick here?

 

See below. Still waiting for the ombudsman, as they're still talking to the Clydesdale, so I am keeping my powder dry for now and hoping for the best!

[mzfrfd]

Hi Lukeyboy1

 

You discuss how complex working out the compound interest is due to making assumptions on the prevailing rate.

 

 

I suppose my questions is

whether the actual interest rate you paid is on the Credit Card Statements you have in your possession, rather than relying on the prevailing rate of the time?

That would take away some of the guesswork?

 

 

For my calculations I used the FosRunning spreadsheet too.

The first one I created was based on information to hand.

ie spend, payments, and actual interest rates applied to the account found on the statements themselves. Do you not have those?

 

 

The second Fos Running spreadsheet was created based on the Ombudsman's approach found on the website

 

 

What we know

• You took out your credit card in January 2003 and took out the PPI policy at the same time.

What we have assumed

 

• Credit card interest at the rate charged on normal purchases applied to the PPI premiums added to your account;

 

• you would have paid the same payments to your account each month as you actually paid; and

 

• Our records of your credit card account only go back to January 2005.

 

 

For the period from January 2003 to January 2005 we have assumed that your credit card spending and your payments to your credit card would have been the same as their average from January 2005 to date.

We have based our reconstruction of your credit card account for that period on those assumptions.

 

I then joined these together into one spreadsheet and have asked the bank to confirm their approach to addressing the missing statements.

I am still waiting for that.

 

 

The Bank also know what you were being charged interest wise and for which periods.

Otherwise how can they calculate the redress?

They need to confirm this and advise you accordingly.

 

If you have the actual interest rates and the periods for which they were applied, let me have them and I'll have a play with your spreadsheet.

[lukeyboy1]

Just got this from the ombudsman - I think the existing offer will stand - not unhappy with that, to be honest, though :-

 

=============

 

Dear X

 

I hope all is well with you.

 

Just to let you know, your complaint is no longer on hold. We’re happy with Clydesdale’s approach when calculating offers, as they take into account all the things we’d expect them to.

 

I will now look into your offer to see if they’ve followed our general approach. In case you’re not familiar with our approach to offers - we’d expect a business to refund all the premiums the consumer paid towards the policy with the associated interest. Lastly we’d expect 8% simple interest to be paid to the consumer, if their account would’ve gone into credit if the PPI wasn’t taken out.

 

If their offer is fair, I’ll explain why I think it is. if it isn’t, I’ll also explain why it isn’t and what Clydesdale need to do for it to be fair.

 

I know you’ve been waiting a while for you case to be resolved, so I’ll try to have it completed by next week the latest. If you’d like to add anything further, please can you send it to me as soon as you can.

 

Thank you for your continued patience.

 

Yours sincerely

 

W J

adjudicator

 

Financial Ombudsman Service

[rosequeen]

Any news yet, have they made you a final offer? I'm still waiting for a review of complaint I made that was turned down last year by Clydesdale.