unknown Welcome Finance CCJ? - now IND own it? help

[AndyOrch]

I would just stick to the " statements "...should be enough to cast doubt over the whole claim.....please be aware you will be lucky if you are in court for 15 mins at the next hearing..so dont think too deep.

[Andy111]

Maybe Andy, & thanks, would certainly like to think and hope the bank statement proof and cover letter from the bank staff alone would be sufficient.

 

But I would still have to compile my own WS & amended defence and add this bank statement evidence along with anything else I might wish to state. So might be slightly prudent to add as much information and argument in my WS as I can (IND have just over a 4 page WS) in case in the worst case scenario that the judge simply decides to omit the bank statement evidence from IND than throw the case out altogether due to the serious nature of submitting and presenting false evidence to a court!.

 

But certainly feeling more hopefull today than in a few weeks over all this.

[AndyOrch]

If the court fail to advise further directions...simply submit your witness statement and file and serve..do you have the next hearing date yet?

[Andy111]

No,

still not got the next hearing date Andy,

and getting rather anxious about it to be honest as its been 9 days since the hearing last week and would have assumed I should have received something from the court by now but nothing.

 

As other than what the judge said on the day about an adjournment for 4 weeks I've not received any further directions.

 

will have to just submit my witness statement and file to both the claimant and court.

 

Going to start to compile my WS over the weekend but there is still quite a bit in the IND file & WS I need to look through and check first.

 

But a lot of the IND witness statement is incredibly difficult or more impossible to counter argue and question in the absence of the WS author stating they won't be there to present their case in person and relying on hearsay evidence.

 

That was the frustrating issue last week,

nobody there to question and cross examine,

just their agent with their "I don't know" answers to what I felt was relevant points and issues over things such as inconsistencies and missing evidence and documents.

[Andy111]

Hmm,

either coincidental timing or IND have seen some recent posts on here and rattled by developments.

 

As I've just had the following letter off IND this morning trying some rather desperate or dirty tricks to try and prevent me from submitting my recent evidence and findings some of which only came to light yesterday.

 

they are trying to claim at the hearing last Wednesday that I was ordered by the court to serve any evidence (and WS) on them and with the court within 7 days of them reserving there disclosure.

 

Remember as said,

I've received no such order or new directions from the courts,

called them to say so and that I require the new directions and even mentioned it a few times on here.

 

And here we are IND trying to claim and prevent me from submitting my own evidence based on an order of the court I've not actually been served with stating such orders or tight restrictions on serving evidence.

 

Any thoughts as not to sure on if they can do this when I've not received any such order in writing and the court when I called yesterday was unable to see that any fresh orders or directions were made at the hearing?.

 

IND1.pdf

[AndyOrch]

Order dated on the 26th May ?

 

Looks like the " statements " point has touched a nerve...simply draft and serve your witness statement tomorrow..in the absence of any further directions

[Andy111]

Well hearing was 26th April (Wednesday last week) , yes as stated I got their disclosure (first copy of) , that IND states as 28th.

 

And so they are trying to assert to the court that an order was made for me to

fully inspect,

counter argue,

get advice,

evidence to prove innocence

& compile all that with a WS

and serve to them within 7 days!.

 

Against a case going back 4 years and that's it's took 4 years to present a case and evidence at hearing that they are saying I'm only allowed 1 week to respond to and present to them?!.

 

Well, will be emailing the court in the first instance to point out I have no such order from the court and in the absence of such fresh orders and directions that have not been served by the court to deny this claim and request by IND.

 

And then try to compile my amended defence, evidence, arguments (not helped by IND hearsay evidence) and WS over the next 2 days and both post and email to both parties registered by Monday.

 

Will also call the courts Monday to inform them of this new development to try and block a legitimate defence and evidence in a fair and reasonable time scale.

[AndyOrch]

[Andy111]

Oh (and in the guess I'm going to be told I'm looking too deep into this)

 

 

in checking bank retention records,

seems the timing of IND trying to bring this claim to hearing and their delay in disclosing evidence all of a sudden would not be any less than the maximum period after which banks normally no longer keep such account details for anyway, no less than 6 years yet no more than 10 years!.

 

 

And 10 years and 1 month is the age of the statement I have an true genuine copy of!.

[AndyOrch]

Not a case of looking too deep...more of a case of small claims court...15 mins...DJ is not really concerned and wants the case sorted and out of his court.

[Andy111]

Ok, fair enough Andy.

 

 

Starting compiling my own amended defence, WS & evidence for which I intend to take the court copy in by hand on Monday.

 

 

But thought I'd upload their WS (personal details censored of cause) just to see if anyone can see anything in it I might be able to use or point out.

 

ind ws .pdf

[dx100uk]

14. there is no histoical evidence of the original creditor 'welcome finance' [or was it progressive?] ever taking pictures of the person who took out loans with them.

[Andy111]

Well they can't even number their points correctly or in order looking at page 4

(maybe 2 different drafts spliced together?).

 

 

But I don't get what their point is there at all!.

Rather puzzling as there isn't anything in the way of photographic evidence in the disclosure that shows anyone from welcome finance or the claimed applicant like office cctv stills proving the person who took out the loans ID?.

 

 

So no, there is no evidence of any photographic ID or who has supposedly supplied this

photographic ID.

 

Makes very confusing reading a lot of there WS

 

Also before I have to go out,

points 11 & 12 where they mention and acknowledge my defence in March 2013,

mention about the Section 77 & CPR 31.14 requests etc

in the defence in point 16 (page 3) and having received that request in March 2013.

 

 

Yet they only mention or try to make claim that they complied with this request in point 18 page 4 on 21 April 2015, over 2 years after they acknowledged the request.

 

are they admitting they failed to comply the S 77 & CPR 31.14 request as legally obligated to or admitting to having missed out evidence in the 2 years in between in the disclosure and WS?.

[dx100uk]

if we've not go them already ..

the exhibits might well be needed to be seen.

 

could they be talking about copies of passport photocopied at the time in 2007?

[Andy111]

Maybe DX,

as there is a poor photocopy of my passport in the evidence.

 

Though as I've said, that could more likely be due to having supplied such photographic ID at some point after their original 2013 claim and prior to late 2015 to try and prove my innocence.

 

But lets face it,

they have made claim to have asked for this in their WS

(getting very easy to discredit now by looks of it),

yet emphasised I never provided it.

 

But of course they would say that wouldn't they as admit it was sent and they probably then can't use it as agreement application ID against me!.

 

Oh yeah, something else,

if not as much an issue but maybe point worth mentioning.

 

When I called the court Friday

(to again enquire about the lack of fresh court orders or updated directions)

I asked about the application to lift the stay late last year

 

as despite this not being mentioned in the WS or evidence you would think it would be stated as after 4 years since the case was stayed they would almost certainly have under most normal circumstances had such an application rejected.

 

So must have assumably gave a very convincing argument and proof to the court in their application statement eh?.

 

Yet no mention at all on the issue and argument you would think would help their claim against me unless details of the lift application statement might contradict some of their WS or stated dates and evidence claims?.

 

the court confirms the stay lift application was made the exact same date (25th Jan 17) without hearing that they transferred the case from Northampton to Liverpool court.

 

as the local judge in this case has likely not been informed this was a stayed case from 4 years ago, he's likely also not been informed or been privy to this lift application, or seen or have any knowledge of the stay lift application statement.

As nothing in the WS or disclosure to clarify this point.

 

As far as the judge can likely see this is simply a recent claim transferred from Northampton to Liverpool. along with the lift application statement that might be handy to get,

might the statements of case and questionnaires presented to the local judge to see if there is anything deceptive in that to?.

 

Oh, and as for their baseless claim that an order is place to try and now prevent me for submitting my amended WS, evidence & arguments, I could remind the court than in the absence of any actual orders or fresh directions received that standard court hearing procedures allow the submission of a witness statement and disclosure upto no later than 14 days prior to a listed hearing date!. For which is also on record that IND dated their own WS very, very late and even filed it with the court days after the final deadline!.

 

By the way,

the court confirmed today I have until at least the end of this week to submit evidence as an order is only getting issued today as the case has now been relisted and NOT last Friday the 5th that IND have sent letters to myself and the court to try and enforce.

 

Would think the judge wouldn't take this sort of instruction and letter from IND to enforce an order on the court and defendant that the court confirmed they never made?.

 

Could be seen as trying to pervert the cause of justice and interfere with the court process?.

Unless IND care to take this so called order they have to the hearing with them?.

 

another day another thought of inconsistency that more raises questions on the reliability of there witness statement.

 

 

The WS makes claim to rely on hearsay evidence citing CPR 33.2 (1)(B) & section 2 (1)(a) of the Civil Evidence Act 1995. And as so won't be attending in person.

 

Is it just me or having noted the WS author claim they only became involved after the claim was issued (which was March 2013) means they 100% would have personal knowledge of the account and it's conduct for a period that includes some evidence and account actions!.

 

How much of an abuse is it to try and make claim to rely on heresy evidence in a court hearing to avoid having to appear and be questioned on actions, issues and evidence they would have personal knowledge of?.

[Andy111]

Right,

a somewhat concerning development that has me somewhat worried.

 

As per last couple of posts,

letter from IND weeked asserting a court order and tight (unreasonably) conditions I'm to compy with yet failed to so try to deny any submission from me.

 

Yet as said no such order has been made, issued or on file with the court as I'd called them multiple time over the issue.

 

Then Monday as said the court confirms an order has now been issued that day (Monday 8th) as the case has now been relisted.

 

This new court order was received yesterday (uploaded in post) and strange enough looks to include some of the points in the order as IND claimed in their letter before this order was issued?.

 

As can be seen from the upload, the order whilst dated 26th April at the bottom of the page, wasn't actually issued until Monday 8th May.

 

Then today I received another letter from IND pretty much confirming they to have now received the new order to, dated 26th April, drawn 8th May which confirms the claims made in the previous letter weekend from IND and confirms that I am no longer able to serve anything!?.

 

In other words it looks as if IND is saying the court is to retrospectively enforce unreasonably tight conditions in that order, yet an order or directions were never issued at the time, or detailed or on file until the 8th May.

 

Any advice as if no order was made and issued how on earth am I expected to know about and comply?.

 

As said called the court multiple time regarding fresh directions and order as Cab alsp said I need them to respond?.

 

Looks to me like there might have been a delay in the court issuing the order as whilst the content of the order is dated same date as the hearing, 26th April, it's not dated as being issued 8th May!.

 

ind.pdf

[AndyOrch]

Quite clear from the order...they have until the 15th May and you have until 21st May

[Andy111]

That's kind of how I see it and would argue it Andy. IND's clear interpretation is that I have just 7 days after the date they resent their disclosure and barred from submitting anything after those 7 days on an order of the court clearly before the court issued any such order.

 

Preposterous of IND to try and claim a court order prevents me from submitting and filing any evidence and defence and that such a period to do so expired 3 days before the date the court order was issued and sent out that they claim states this.

 

I see this as intimidating action to try and convince the court and me I can't submit anything based on a clearly pointless argument that has no merit!.

[AndyOrch]

You need to start ignoring what IND state and say.....they barley know how to issue a court claim....less a lone process one.

 

Ignore as the courts will

[Andy111]

IND and the court will actually have had my defence and evidence by now anyway. S

 

o will be interesting to see what tricks IND might try next to prevent my defence and evidence.

But ive informed the court in a separate letter today about these letters from IND (that the court also assumingly have received)

and that I find the actions and directions against the court and myself as nothing less than intimidation to try

and convince me not to submit evidence and a defence as the court won't allow it.

 

Would think the court wont look to well on the actions of IND and the deliberate act to dissuade me from filing anything!.

[Andy111]

Since my response,

witness statement and evidence went in,

 

I'm reading various laws,

pretty much what I'm doing right now to research and argue case in court if need be.

 

But looking into issues around purgery and contempt of court for false witness statement and evidence etc,

would have to be either very brave or very stupid of IND to try and continue with this case now I feel!.

 

As along with the face value seriousness of such an easily proven example of false witness statement and evidence which it seems the court can't ignore, the circumstances surrounding the evidence could far more strengthen a claim they did know certain evidence was not genuine yet supplied it as and claimed it as do in the witness statement.

 

As looking at the bank statement example,

it indicates a certain income and a bank balance in excess of £2000.

 

Yet the genuine bank statement evidence I obtained and supplied

(along with a signed inspection of authentication letter confirming the IND copy is not genuine) shows no income at all and a bank balance around just the £200 mark.

 

it could be argued it was in the claimants or welcome finances interest to knowingly submit false evidence (yet claim and sign it as genuine) to strengthen their case.

 

As if not what have they got to validate this credit agreement in the way of a proven income and applicable documents etc?.

 

As the signature on the agreement is disputable for reasons said,

the witness statement makes claim to use hearsay evidence citing they have no personal knowledge before the claim issue yet evidence relates to after the issue of claim.

 

Missing the original claim form,

missing the lift stay application statement and reasons and yet they mention to try and comply with an S77 & CPR 31.14 2 years after they include evidence themselves to say it was requested.

 

For which they have directly indicated they have failed to comply with the requests or admitting they have purposely missed out mention and disclosure that they have received other communications!.

 

Will be interesting to see if they still goto hearing end of month and how they might argue these issues!.

 

Interesting developments of sorts after going the cab for a little advice today.

With authorisation they call the court to enquire on the court order and IND letters etc.

 

The court indicated that it was in fact the 5th May that I was supposed to respond and get everything in by despite what was issued being dated 8th May!.

 

The court suggests this order was issued verbally over requiring me to fully comply within 1 week.

Yet a number of issues and timescales were mentioned at the hearing which is why I'd called a number of times for clarification as I needed to know as not received anything from the courts and they confirmed nothing had yet been issued!.

 

Yet funny how this court order gives them 3 weeks to provide something they already had as a complete file and I was supposed to fully respond and compile a full file, defence and evidence inside a single week!.

 

I thought the time scales were likely to have been the other way round if anything?.

So god know what's going to happen!.

 

But the cab mentioned to the court that I was on their advice also now reporting the matter to the police as possible\probable identity fraud\theft as seems possible from the disclosure.

 

the court has my witness statement and evidence at least and they have commented that I've made a very serious allegation regarding some claimant evidence.

 

No allegation, the word I used was "discrepancies" and provided the counter evidence as provided by the bank.

 

And then the court said they have heard from welcome finance (IND?) to state that they suspected that the bank statement might not be genuine and indicate it was only provided for the purpose of the stated address. This is news to me!,

 

they provided their evidence and written the witness statement making claims it's all genuine and true signing it. Would be shocked if they try to get the court to allow them to backtrack and modify things!.

 

And now I hear back from the cab via the courts that the claimant have now requested I go and enquire on if I can obtain any other and additional bank records from that period!!!.

 

Cheeky buggers,

they are using questionable evidence and discrepancies,

not disclosing or mentioning certain evidence or applications,

won't provide the original claim,

not providing the original agreement application which you'd think would have more of my details on, not providing all that's needed to validate the agreement anyway,

not mentioning events such as other applications to the court, trying to prevent me from submitting anything etc.

And they now "request" via the courts and cab I go out of my way to get additional bank details that I had to pretty much beg for in the first place.

 

I'll do that (or at least enquire if the bank will provide it) when they provide me with everything else they have failed to mention and withhold and state why they withheld it!..

 

I'm happy to see the hearing go forwards as it is, no excuse or defence with there witness statement and evidence.

Cab feel they might even drop it, possibly looking for loopholes I don't know.

[AndyOrch]

So basically the claimant had advance warning of the order and you as defendant was left in the dark and allowed less time to prepare.....does not sound normal for our Justice system

[Andy111]

Does sound slight suspect, and don't understand it to be honest Andy as can't suspect the court of anything dodgy as such, but something ain't right in this.

[AndyOrch]

Simply raise it as a question when your in the hearing and ask if the DJ can throw any light on why this is the case.

[Andy111]

Will do,

what the cab were told was that this order was issued verbally on the day during the hearing and not written up and issued until the 8th, May, the date the court listed the new hearing.

But as said, many things were said, that why I'd been calling for clarification.

 

 

But I got there late on the day of first hearing 26th April.

And was told when I called the court to say I was running late

the IND agent was already in with the judge

but delayed the hearing when I informed the court I was running late.

 

 

Still! odd how IND seemed to know the contents pretty much word for word unless they asked during the hearing for things to work that way without me realising exactly what was getting stated and asked for?.

 

Going to call cab tomorrow to request via the courts (like IND have for some reason)

that IND provide me with evidence and clarification on issues I've raised they elected not to mention in their disclosure if they want specific details of my bank account (which I'll happily see if I can obtain if they comply) in return as I'd not trust their motives or reasons for a moment after recent developments and how they have ran this court claim against me.

 

 

As cab said, they feel it looks like they could be seeking a reason or way to drop the case saving face than to go to hearing in face of everything else!.